1911 leading

I have a 9111 in 45 ACP that shoots reasonable well with the Lee 230 tc. Lube is carnuba red. Shooting it over 4.7 gr of HP 38. Does not lead one bit. Shoot 200 rounds, dry patch down the barrel, not a speck of lead.
Got a new Lee 200 swc mild for Christmas. Sized to the same .452, same lube, same powder charge. I get a ring of lead in front of the chamber.
I am using the same alloy, casting technique, etc for both. Bearing surfaces seems similar, both are a bevel base.
Any suggestions? The swc seems to want to shoot better than the tc but the leading is not helping any. Bullet is seated to max allowable by the chamber, dropped into barrel the head of the case is even with the end of the barrel hood.
It is colder here now and wondering if that has any affect on the situation. Have not shot the tc outdoors in 30 degree weather but I doubt the cold is causing this as carnuba red works fine for me in everything else even in cold weather.

Test both under the samest conditions. THEN, make the comparison.

Cold can make lube stop working.

Bill

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by btroj

I have a 9111 in 45 ACP that shoots reasonable well with the Lee 230 tc. Lube is carnuba red. Shooting it over 4.7 gr of HP 38. Does not lead one bit. Shoot 200 rounds, dry patch down the barrel, not a speck of lead.
Got a new Lee 200 swc mild for Christmas. Sized to the same .452, same lube, same powder charge. I get a ring of lead in front of the chamber.
I am using the same alloy, casting technique, etc for both. Bearing surfaces seems similar, both are a bevel base.
Any suggestions? The swc seems to want to shoot better than the tc but the leading is not helping any. Bullet is seated to max allowable by the chamber, dropped into barrel the head of the case is even with the end of the barrel hood.
It is colder here now and wondering if that has any affect on the situation. Have not shot the tc outdoors in 30 degree weather but I doubt the cold is causing this as carnuba red works fine for me in everything else even in cold weather.

---

I going to guess that both are loaded to the same OAL, so the 200gr parts company with the cartridge brass earlier than the 230gr. Before the 200gr can engage the rifling and seal the bore, gasses rush by it stripping off most of your lube and depositing lead on your bore.

The solution isn't intuitively obvious, but I would recommend that you increase your charge.

btroj;
This is a bit of a puzzler. There is nothing about your loading or powder charge that sets off an alarm for me. You are correctly seating the bullet. You use two bullet designs that have worked quite well for many others. Your lube choice is excellent.

One thing you don't mention, is the alloy. I shoot several thousand .45 ACP rounds per year with my cast bullets in 1911's as well as a couple of S&W 625's without issue.

I use Carnauba Red for a lube, size to .452" and seat my bullets flush with the barrel hood on the 1911's. My "standard" alloy is WW's + 2% tin. My bullets are a Mihec #68 200 gr SWC (similar too but not exactly like the Lee) as well as the Lee 230 gr TC (standard lube groove). I get absolutely NO leading.

Let us know what alloy you are using. That CAN make a difference.

Dale53

I use range wrap with a little magnum shot or a little Linotype. I would say it is on the softer side of this rather than the harder side. I have a feeling this might be part of the problem.

Dla- I do not seat to same length. Each was seated to have head of case even with end of barrel hood when dropped into chamber. I don't have actual measurements but memory tells me the 200 swc has a slightly shooter oal, but nose length is a factor here. Both look to have the same amount of full diameter bullet above the case mouth.

I loaded some last nite with the taper crimp backed off. A lot. I was ending up with a loaded round with a measurement at the case mouth of .468 and now they are .472. Just a trial to see if this is a factor at all. The 230 tc was always at the smaller measurement, no leading.

I have a feeling it is a combination of cold weather affecting lube, a softish alloy, and maybe the taper crimp sizing the bullet down just enough to cause problems. This is the type of situation that makes shooting cast interesting. Frustrating at times, but interesting.

(I was ending up with a loaded round with a measurement at the case mouth of
*** .468***and now they are .472. )

That .468 To me is making the diameter to small. I think you are on the mend now . Let us know how it goes.:idea:

I think the taper crimp is part of the problem. What bothers me is why it was never a problem with the 1200 or so rounds loaded with the 230 tc that had the same amount of crimp. never a bit of lead from all those rounds. This is why I think the crimp is only a part of the problem.
Don't know when weather will let me get to the range again, supposed to be highs of 10 degrees or so on my next day off. Way too cold for me.

I mean no offense, but the lube is not the problem. Your problem is simply lack of obturation due to (a) light for weight powder charge and (b) temperature sensitivity of the powder.

I'll bet that if you pull a bullet out of the backstop you'll find the lube missing. A properly obturating/sized 45acp bullet will still have the lube intact.

You need to increase the pressure. IMHO. Have fun!

silly question, does one have a noticeably different lube capacity than the other?

Actually dla I have found lube on the few bullets I have pulled from the backstop. I did increase from 4.7 to 5.3 of hp38 but still got the leading. I may try a higher yet charge.

Trickyasafox- they both seem to have the same lube capacity. Actually, other than a different nose profile they are very similar bullets.

Slug your barrel and have a look at the throat. If you have a throat, and the bore is .4505 or .450 as most new 1911s come from the factory, try sizing to .451 so the boolit can enter the throat a bit upon chambering. When a 1911 barrel is chambered the lands are left square on the chamber end. This edge is then broken with a hand reamer to make the very short throat common to 1911s. As this is done by hand and "feel", barrels can come with lot's of throat, or none at all. If your barrel has no throat then the square end of the lands "cuts" the grooves into the boolit and small shards of lead are produced which subsequent boolits iron into the barrel. If a SWC is sized larger than the opening to the throat then the lip of the front drive band is scraped off as the boolit enters the throat, leaving some lead at the mouth of the chamber for subsequent shots to smear into the beginning of the barrel.

I've found this sort of leading, (first inch of the barrel), to be pretty common for shooters using new 1911s and store bought cast boolits sized .452. In about 20 cases so far the problem was eliminated just by sizing to .451 If you really want a clue as to what exactly is going on, clean the barrel back to bare steel, fire one round only, and then pull the barrel and have a look at just where the lead is deposited.

BD

BD, that makes sense. Will try the one round and look thing as soon as possible.
Had not though about effect of the square shoulder on the swc as opposed to the taper of the tc. This may be a factor.

Thanks, that is a factor I had not considered.

Bd beat me to it. I had the same problem when shooting pure lead swaged SWCs. As to why the problem occurs with the SWC but not the TC .... imagine a steel plate with a .4505 - .451 hole drilled into it. If you tried to push a .452 TC into it, the smooth transition from nose to shank would likely allow you to jam the boolit in without shaving lead. Now imagine what would happen to the sharp shoulder on the SWC.
I'll offer an alternative to BD's advice.... chamber a round (from slide-lock or "sling-shot") ... but don't fire it. Extract the unfired round and look at the boolit shoulder. I suspect that you'll have the answer as to why.

I should've added that you'll likely get to put a bit of work into your "extract a hard-chambered round from a 1911" drill when extracting the round. A bit of shaved shoulder'll wedge a round into a chamber nice and tightly.

They do not wedge into the chamber. I made up a few dummy rounds when I changed the taper crimp. They chamber and eject just like they should. 3 out of the mag just pull slide back bang, bang, bang.
This is something I have learned to always do with this gun. Makes sure they feed from the mag ok and that they chamber easily too. Call it my peace of mind test if you will. Besides, I have a few cases with small primer pockets and it gives me a use for them. I also use these to help reset my dies if I need to change them for something else.

Shot 100 today with the taper crimp backed off. Still getting lead at the chamber end of the barrel. I need to find a 451 sizer to give that a try. And I might try a harder alloy.

I really am starting to think the sharp shoulder on the swc as opposed to the taper of the tc is a big part of the problem. I hope the 451 sizing helps, I sure like the clean holes this bullet cuts on paper. Easier on lead too.

I shot 100 today cast harder than what I was using. I got some leading but not near as much. I need to find a 451 sizer and give it a shot.

I may just go back to the old relaible 230tc Lee bullet. It works and gives no leading. I was just hoping the 200 swc would shrink both my groups and lead consumption.