Jesus’ words “Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing”
This I don't think was about his crucifixion so what was his meaning?
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Jesus’ words “Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing”
This I don't think was about his crucifixion so what was his meaning?
Jesus could look into your eyes and see everything and still offer a way to lift what ever burden through His loving forgiveness. If we can grasp His offer and live as He would want us to live we will find salvation.
This offer of salvation goes to everyone from the thief next to Him to the Romans gambling for his clothes.
Why would you not think this was about his crucifixion? The context is that after they had crucified him, he said "Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing." Who did not know what they were doing?Quote:
Originally Posted by DCP
The soldiers who performed the task most likely did not know who he was or, because of that, what they were actually doing (i.e., rejecting God and killing his son). The prayer was offered for them. It was not offered for the Jewish leaders who had rejected and murdered him or the disciple that delivered him to his enemies. These people knew exactly what they were doing. Jesus had serious things to say about these people and the consequences of their actions. My thought is that Jesus only asked for the forgiveness of the soldiers for this one act.
The reason I said it wasn't about his crucifixion. Because it was God will for Christ to be sacrificed.
I think it was meant for everyone. In Peter's first sermon, Acts 2:34 he's speaking to his Jewish brethren who were "cut to the heart" about the realization of Christ's crucifixion. "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. This was directly for those agonizing about their part in history. And Paul covers it Romans too, somewhere around chapter ten. Basically saying if we can't forgive the Jewish people for the crucifixion we are guilty of same sin that crucified Jesus. Not that we pounded the nail but that sin is sin and we are still alive to sin. Which is opposite of what Jesus was trying to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ickisrulz
If Jesus would have said "it is done" leaving anyone out of reach from forgiveness then he would have fell in failure as a house divided against itself.
The forgiveness was for all! the ones who called for his death,the ones doing the work,and the ones who cheered them on.
We are to forgive our enemies.
Arthur W. Pink has an excellent meditation on the seven statements of Christ. You can download his entire writings for just under $10.00 - I would suggest you do and do your own study.
I think you might have missed the SPRIT of Cast BoolitsQuote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Smith
This is where my one of many questions come into play. If it was God's will for him to die on the cross, did they have a choice in what they were doing anyway?
bingoQuote:
Originally Posted by snow ninja
It was God's will that man never fall at all. But since man was given a choice and blew it, God decided to step in rather than destroying everything that failed. God is omniscient and knew what would happen with man. He had a plan for redemption even before the world was created. It was his will that Jesus submit to suffering and death to redeem his people. However, this does not suggest that God wanted people to torture and murder his son. He used the occurrence to provide a payment for man's sins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow ninja
It is never God's will that any person sin. But God will use sinful behavior to carry out his plans. There are countless examples in Scripture.
ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Ickisrulz
Yes! Free will is one of Adonai's gifts to us. Not all the Sanhedrin participated, though many did, in the false accusations and resultant execution. They all had a choice, and could have done otherwise. But... G-d the Father knew they wouldn't, not at that time, not with those players on the stage, as it were. Thus the prophecies could be fulfilled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow ninja
It had to happen like this, so that His plan for not just salvation, but for restoration could take place (in His time). The church often misses the second point; in His death restoration could take place. Yeshua (Jesus) is the groom; the people are the bride, specifically the Jewish people. G-d was very clear that he divorced His people and scattered them, but that he would gather them again. Under Torah (G-d's Law), once divorced, you can't remarry the same person. But marriage is until death. By the Son dying, G-d could be rejoined to His people - when the time is right. The time of the Gentiles isn't over yet, but given that the nation of Israel has been reborn, I think we're getting darn close...
Dave
So in Acts 3:13-18 Peter clearly lays Christ death square at the feet of those very Israelites calling crucify him, and that they acted in ignorance, as did their leaders! This would seem to include both the Roman and Jewish leaders. In 1 Corinthians 2:8 says that had they, the leaders, known what they where doing, that they wouldn't have put him to death. So it seems to me even they "didn't know what they where doing", because they didn't know God's will and plan.On the cross Jesus was keeping his teaching where in Matthew 5:43-44 he told his followers a new way! One where you dont just love those we favor "our neighbor", but love our enemies and pray for our persecutors. It's obvious to me early Christians understood this precept, as Stephen was being stoned, killed, for proclaiming the Christ, he prayed that the sin of his murder not be counted against his killers! This is recorded in Acts 7:58-60.
I reconcile myself to the question of( did they have a choice? ), by looking at verse 18 of Acts 3. Is stated there, that this is how God fulfilled the prophecies! Are we not all involved in "in doing God's will"? Sometimes even in ignorance, for good or bad? You may not see it this way, and that's quite all rite, but I firmly believe God's in control, always had been, always will be.
Then in verse 19 Peter reveals how these ignorant folks that put the Son of God to death, could be redeemed, even reconciled to God. To me this goes full circle rite back to the statement Jesus made on the cross when he asked the Father, "forgive them".
Wasn't Jesus prayer answered on the day of Pentecost when many repented and where saved, then even Roman solders? The truth is that until we accept salvation we are all just as guilty of driving in the nails, weaving a crown of thorns, washing our hands of blood, casting the lots for his cloths, bearing false whitness, or swinging that scourge!
^ Well said IMO.
I disagree with this statement. There are sinners in the world that want nothing to do with lying, stealing or murdering. They may be guilty of rejecting the light, but I doubt God will charge them with mistreating and killing his Son on judgement day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundarstick
Heb 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
The only reason Christ was crucified was our sin. They may indeed receive a harsher judgment, but being cut off from God is the same judgment that will be passed on all the unsaved, what's harsher?
Once again I'll confess, my sins held him to the cross!
There are Judaizers that try and conflate the old covenant with the new and better covenant.
Sometimes I joke to myself that it was their hard luck that they happened to be alive during the time that God chose to fulfill prophesy. But in John, Jesus talks about the Father keeping some eyes from seeing and some ears from hearing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow ninja
Sometimes I contrast the treatment of Jonah on the boat and how he had to talk them into throwing him over board to save themselves to the treatment of Jesus by some that couldn't wait lift to him up.
It is one thing to know Christ would be crucified, and of CAUSING it to happen. God the Father did NOT will Christ to be cricified. It was the Jewish leaders and some of the people who cried out for his death.
As to the matter of whether we, who couldn't be present at the crucifixion, can be held responsible with, or related to those who did that, it's a figurative judgment. If we refuse and/or deny the Light, then we are guilty of actively trying to put it out, either actively or passively. Either way, we're anti-Christ, and thus, figuratively just as guilty as if we'd been there at the judgment of Christ. That's my view, anyway. These things get VERY finely disected. It takes a razor's edge of thinking to distinguish what is meant by what we each SAY. Words are often, when discussing many theological matters, a very inefficient and imprecise way to convey our meanings. Especially when none of us is truly expert at hitting that incredibly thin dividing line between one thing and another sometimes.
But it's always worth it to TRY to communicate, and understand each other better. It's how we learn best, even if it's usually quite difficult. But again, it's always worth it. Otherwise, why did Christ admonish us to "Study to show thyself approved?"