30-06 vs. .308 load data - M1 Garands

Let me preface this by saying I'm working on loads that are safe for the Garand's gas system, and that can duplicate the M-2 Ball, M-2 AP, and M-1 Ball / M-72 Match loads, so mostly, 150gr - 175gr bullets. For the purposes of this discussion, I'm also limiting my loads to jacketed (gasp) bullets.

So, I've found a powder that has a burning rate that is right in the middle of a bunch of good M-1 Garand powders. (In fact, it is right in between the two "best" Garand powders: Varget and 4895.) But, that company publishes no load data for that powder in 30-06, but they do in 308 Win.

SO, the question is, can I use the 308 load data as a starting point for the 30-06??

Bullet weight is the same, primer is the same, powder charge will be the same. My plan is to work up loads until I get 100% reliable functioning, and velocities are close to the military loads I want to duplicate, and then stop. Of course, I'll be measuring case heads for pressure indicators, but I've found that to be a little less accurate of a pressure measure on the generous-chambered semi-auto service rifles...

BTW, the powder is Ramshot TAC. (Yes, it is a ball powder, and that's why I don't just look at the loads of Varget and 4895 and work from that angle.)

port pressure is more important than chamber pressure in both rifles. try emailing Keith Anderson at www.westernpowders.com and ask him, probably will have an answer. TAC is a 308 powder made in Belgium and I love it, although I do have a lot of BLC2 from years ago. for an across the course load in my M14 i use 4895 and 168's, although will change to 175's for 600 yards this coming year. and will build myself a longrange 308 bolt gun this winter, iron sights only. somewhere in my stuff there is an article and loads with port pressure data for the m14, maybe American Rifleman a long time ago.

Thanks Frank. I e-mailed him.

What's the matter with IMR 4895, THE powder the Garand was designed to operate on?

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Originally Posted by dominicfortune00

What's the matter with IMR 4895, THE powder the Garand was designed to operate on?

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I have 50 lbs of TAC in my powder magazine and no 4895... That's the main "problem."

Secondarily, I like to consolidate my powders to a few specific ones that I can get good pricing on. I did this with the TAC, because it worked in numerous applications I need. My 30-06 powder for bolt (hunting) rifles has been H-4831SC, but it's too slow for the Garand gas system, hence my question if one of my "standard" powders in a seemingly good burning rate would work...

Just curious: Can QuickLoad predict pressure/time curves for a port a specified distance down a bore?

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Originally Posted by MakeMineA10mm

My 30-06 powder for bolt (hunting) rifles has been H-4831SC, but it's too slow for the Garand gas system, ...

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In full strength loads with jacketed bullets, that's true. In reduced charges, it can be very gentle on the gas system. My old standard load for .30 cal M1 was 42 grains of WW II surplus 4831 with the Ideal 311284. Very reliable functioning. No leading in bore or gas cylinder; would find some flecks on the gas piston, these wiped off easily with a few swipes of an old bronze bore brush. Accuracy equal to "good" M2 Ball. Some unburned/partially burned powder granules in the bore did not seem to hurt anything.

YMMV ...

Resp'y,
Bob S.

When I was active in service rifle competition in the 1960s there wasn't much motivation to try to use cast boolits in the Garand.

Surplus G.I. M2 Ball ammo ran about $6.00 per hundred rounds, and you could still get the 152 gr. FMC boolits through the DCM for about $20.00 per thousand.

But, like most reloaders, I had to try it just to see if it works! :mrgreen:

One of the early Lyman cast boolit manuals suggested a cast boolit load for the M1 that would function the action semi-automatically. I don't remember which boolit they recommended, but I found that the load worked pretty well.

I used Lyman # 311413 (gas check) cast very hard on top of 42 grains of 4895 in G.I. cases. Boolits were lubed with Lyman's regular black lube and sized to .310.

Loads functioned flawlessly and did not lead the bore. Found a few flecks of lead in the gas cylinder, but nothing at all serious.

Accuracy was as good as M2 Ball would shoot.

So, whenever the supply of M2 Ball ran dry, I had a back-up to use! :)

I did learn one important thing from this:

If there were any significant imperfections in the cast boolits, such as air pockets inside, or bases or driving bands that weren't filled out, group size went to hell in a chicken basket.

Weighing the boolits and culling out the "light-weights" eliminated the problem.

Steve

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Originally Posted by Ricochet

Just curious: Can QuickLoad predict pressure/time curves for a port a specified distance down a bore?

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Ricochet:

YES to the above. Send perameters. I will run the numbers.

Jeffrey

I do have data from Ramshot for Tac in the 30-06 in one of the freebies manuals they used to give away.

155 Hornady A-max lists 48.9 for 2883fps using CCI 200 primers
168 Sierra HPBT lists 48.5 for 2901fps using Win WLR
178 Hornady A-max lists 45.2 for 2544fps using CCI 200s
180 Hornady A-max lists 47.6 for 2613fps using CCI 200s
(All maximum loads - start low work up)

Quickload jibes pretty well with those numbers listing charges of 45-51 gr using the 168gr matchkings with muzzle pressures very similar (actually just slightly lower) than 4895 or varget.

Well, I've got to say, Western Powders is REALLY responsive to special questions from customers!

I received a return e-mail from Johan Loubser, one of their ballisticians, and he reported the following:

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TAC will be suitable for bullet weights up to 150gr.

Anything heavier will result in loading densities of less than 80% at the maximum pressure load which means a 70% loading density at the START loads.

At such low loading densities the round will be extremely sensitive to the position of the powder.

We have just completed a full re-test on the 30-06 with Ramshot

What you should keep in mind is the velocity guidelines for the “Service” loads.

As you can see in most cases these will require much less than the maximum loads published

TAC - Sierra 110gr HP - Start: 52.7grs for 3066fps - MAXIMUM: 58.5grs for 3407fps
TAC - Nosler 125gr BT - Start: 50.9grs for 2907fps - MAXIMUM: 56.5grs for 3230fps
TAC - Hornady 150gr SST - Start: 45.5grs for 2595fps - MAXIMUM: 50.5 for 2883fps

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He went on to give me two loads to use, if I really wanted to use bullets heavier than 150grs with TAC. One was a set of loads to use with 168gr bullets and the other was for 172-175gr bullets. Since they're "not recommended" I'm not going to publish them here, but if anyone really wants them, I'll PM them to you. They both have 78-79% loading density at the max load.

I have the chance to buy several jugs of this AA powder. Has anyone tried it in their 308 or 06? By the AA manual it looks ok for the gas systems and seems good in other mid size rounds. Just wondering if it is hard to ignite and needs mag primer?