For hunting with a .45-70, is a soft alloy that opens up better than a hard one that goes right through? Maybe the answer is in what you’re hunting. What about with hollow points? Harder or softer alloy?
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For hunting with a .45-70, is a soft alloy that opens up better than a hard one that goes right through? Maybe the answer is in what you’re hunting. What about with hollow points? Harder or softer alloy?
I am using a NOE 350 gr. WFN bullet for deer in my 45-70 cast from 100% coww with bhn between 16 and 19. It leaves a nice 1/2 inch hole clear through so expansion is surely something that is not needed.My cousin used one of the Hornady 325 gr. gummy tip bullets this year in his 45-70 and boy what a mess.I took more edible meat home from the processors. I absolutely hate any type of HP for deer,varmints,ok but deer,no.That's just my opinion,of course but some do like them.
I have had different experience than Static line , I started casting RCBS 458-405 FP out of #2 Lyman alloy , it would kill deer and pigs but never expanded so only the 1/2 inch wound channel and accuracy a lot less than my rifle was capable of.
I ended up through learning going to a NOE 460-405 HP cast form about 40 to 1 pure lead to tin out 8 to 10 Bhn. this has been giving me a bout a inch exit hole with lots of blood lose and the animal dropping faster , most of the time planted where he was hit.
Personally I would tend to pick as soft a bullet as possible for hunting with the 45-70.
The exceptions would be if I really needed velocity or penetration. If I needed velocity I would pick a different chambering.
The half inch hole straight through is probably going to work fine but I would rather dump as much energy as possible into the animal and no cast bullets from a 45-70 are likely going to have explosive effects at the speeds attainable. Wouldn't bother with hollow points either though. Too much trouble to cast in my opinion (especially since I would have to start by buying the mold).
Quote:
Originally Posted by vagrantviking
I have to agree with you I think my accuracy improved from going to a bollit size .460 and now I don't believe the HP does much in this case, but now I own the mold. the 45/70 have had enough energy to go through every thing it shot regardless of angle or distance over 100 yards,
I'm having a problem with "100% coww with bhn between 16 and 19" unless it's quenched I've never seen coww over 12.
I like the softest lead that will shoot accurately and mushroom on impact.
Popper is working on a new way to harden just the base - drive bands of a lead boolit. I'm watching to see what he comes up with.
Greg,
All you need is a good Wide Flat Nose bullet of at least 400gr and pushed somewhere in the mid 1000 - 2000fps range and it will flat get er done!
In my 45/70, I use a 50/50 alloy of Clip On Wheel weights/lead and water quench the bullets as they fall from the mold.
Have taken a pile of deer and three elk with that bullet with a velocity of right at 1650fps. If it expands, OK so be it , but with the WFN/large meplat I could really care less about expansion.
Every deer with only one exception has dropped where it stood and the elk were down in less time then it takes to tell about it.
During the 2017 deer season I took two deer with my RUGER 77/44 using a WFN 275/280gr at 1750fps and both dropped where they stood with complete pass through.
The .44 bullets were cast of clip on wheel weights and water quenched.
If expansion happens, so be it, but the large meplat of the Wide Flat Nose gets er done!
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
Mostly my bhn readings with the 100 % coww are 16 and 17 bhn after a long cure but those were air cooled on winter cold days,probably not much different then water quenching on a summer day.I just got done casting on a couple 40 degree days here,outside,and they dropped at 10 and 11 bhn. I'm thinking they might make it to 16 bhn after a cure time too.We'll see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conditor22
Would you use the same BHN for wild hogs as deer?
I look at 45 boolits as pre expanded.
Truly a topic of great philosophical debate!
The thing about harder alloys - they will often shoot more accurately, at least when you start ramping up the velocities. A gas check design for the softer alloys will help you out in that department.
A flat nose .45 rifle slug that does not expand is going to keep travelling in a straight line through whatever critter bits get in its way, and crush a 1/2" to 3/4" hole in the process. The notion here is that the clean kill is more down to marksmanship than "special effects": you draw a line through a vital organ, successfully send a bullet along that line, and let the fatal bleed-out commence. Do it right, your deer is down in ten seconds.
More diameter in theory equals a faster bleed out, but if the bullet stops in the animal, you lose wound channel DEPTH. Wound VOLUME is a matter of both length AND depth, so wider all by itself is not necessarily a special thing. It DOES however, have the potential to blow up a whole lot of perfectly good meat.
Bullets kill through one of two mechanisms - blood loss or nerve system destruction. Magic is not on the table. Unless you scramble the brains or sever the spine, the instantaneous Hollywood "bang-flop" is pure chance. A half-inch hole through the cardiovascular system will kill anything in short order, but be ready to search the surrounding 50-ish yards.
Attachment 233354
Two 130 grain WFN .32 bullets cast from the same mold - one of water-quenched wheelweights and the other of 20-1 lead/tin shot into rows of milk jugs from about 15 feet at 1250 fps. The hard bullet took nine jugs to stop and the nose only compressed slightly, the soft bullet stopped in three - which is about on par with what you'll see from police duty pistol loads.
Attachment 233355
More of the same with 20-1 in a 180 grain WFN from a 38-.40 rifle. As I recall, about 1400 fps and took four jugs to stop.
No pics, but I got nine jugs out of a similar shape, hard-alloy 230 grain .45 ACP at standard GI hardball speed of 830fps. No, it wouldn't be my first choice, but if I were hungry enough, I'd have ZERO qualms about sneaking to bayonet range to use that load on an elk.
Another facet of expansion is that it can be very velocity-dependent. You're looking to hit your animal in that Goldilocks zone of not too fast (potential bullet explosion) and not too slow (no deformation), and hoping the animal cooperates by appearing at the right range. In contrast, the hard, flat-nosed bullet will leave an almost identical wound track at any distance. Consistency and lack of mystery - it ain't a bad thing, and I prefer penetration over expansion for that reason.
On a deer, all of the above ammo would work just fine on broadside shots. Different angles or larger animals (i.e. Cape buffalo) would tip the scales in favor of straight line penetration. One African professional's goal is to draw a line through the animal to the shoulder on the opposite side of the body. That will not only poke a hole through the pumphouse, but will take out a fourth of the animal's support structure. You might lose some shoulder meat, but if the alternative is losing the animal (maybe a potentially dangerous one) in thick cover or having it run down a ravine or into a swamp, it's a good call. That method kills them AND anchors them.
Now, I don't think I could bring enough jugs to the range in one trip to stop 405 grains of hard-cast .45-70 at Marlin or Ruger #1 speeds. Even with expansion, there's little in North America that would present a penetration challenge to that much mass. I would NOT pick a hollow point, but something that gradually squishes out to .70-.80 cal would be just fine with me for medium, non-dangerous stuff - - provided it still groups well. Worst case - it's still a "pre-expanded" .45.
A bullet that will expand dumps more energy into the given target, than a solid. To me Ideally the perfect performance would be an exit hole and pocking the bullet up off of the ground within 5-10 feet of the animal. 99.5% energy dump into the animal with just enough left to leave an exit hole. Accuracy and placement of the shot is more important than anything. Energy expended after its left the animal is energy wasted on a hillside tree or air. Its the energy dumped in the animal that does the work. A deer or hog (150-300lb animal) hit right and a good energy dump is done.
Greg,
With my 45/70, I'd use the same bullet and same hardness for ANY and ALL game hunted in North American and most of the rest of the world besides. That is a 465gr Wide Flat Nose cast of 50/50 - Clip on Wheel Weights and lead, water quenched as they fall from the mold. With proper shot placement, preferred is behind the shoulders if given a side to side shot, it just simply works.
Not sure I can agree with BigSlug as I have only had one deer run from the spot where it stood at the shot when using the 45/70. That included a 100yd. deer taken with a side to side behind the shoulders shot and a 280gr WFN .44 taken during the 2017 season.
With the one that ran when hit with the 45/70 slug, it was my fault for hitting the critter just a touch too far back, more in the diaphragm/liver area. Dead on it's feet, but ran 50+ yards.
For whatever reason, I can no longer attached photographs to this forum, or I'd show the one and likely only bullet I'll ever find in a critter shot with the 45/70.
Found one, that being from the first cow elk I took, a quartering shot at about 100yds which took out the BIG heavy front leg bone, a rib, through the lungs, through the paunch and guts stopping just under the hide right in front of the off side ham. Velocity 1650fps+/- the 50/50 cast bullet, starting weight 465gr and the "after" weight 327.9gr, the bullet continuing about 30" after taking out that heavy bone and I suspect loosing it's nose. The critter down in seconds. Same with the other two elk I've brought home with side to side behind the shoulder hits and complete pass through, range 100 to 161yds.
The 50/50 water quenched alloy has been used at the recommendation of the mold maker and it has been very successful on both the deer and the elk.
As per your question about deer or hogs, I go back to my earlier statement. I'd use the same bullet and load for any North American critter I might have the privilege to hunt from the smallest deer to the largest bear.
By the way, the deer I took in 2017 with the RUGER 77/44 with a behind the shoulder shot was one of two deer that rifle and bullet/load (1750fps+/-) accounted for during that season. The second, much closer then the first was taken with a neck shot and of course it dropped where it stood. Again a complete pass through the neck a shoulder blade and exited at the back of the shoulder. Bullet cast of just plain old clip on wheel weights. water quenched as they fell from the mold.
I'm one that seeks to optimize ONE load/bullet for any given hunting rifle I have/use and there is simply NO reason to be switching loads, bullets, or hardness depending on the critter when hunting with the 45/70.
As robg said, consider the .45 slug to be "pre-expanded". Use a good Wide Flat Nose/large meplat bullet from a reasonable alloy and leave the worry at home. With proper shot placement and mid 1000 - 2000fps velocity it WILL get er done! One bullet, one load for everything.
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
Only thing I've killed with a 45-70 were deer . Got a big bodied 6 pointer 10 or 11 years ago using the Gould HP bullet in a Marlin 1895CB with a tang sight . Killed a few more with variouse Marlin 45-70's shooting Ranch Dog 350 and 425 grain gas check FP bullets . ALL were cast with straight WW's and air cooled . None went further then 30 yards after the shot . Incidently the one I killed with the Gould bullet was BOOM FLOP !
So what would you use for hunting moose and buffalo, hard or soft alloy?
I have killed several buffalo with a Ranch Dog 350 gr. boolit that was cast from clip on wheel weights with 2% tin added for mold fillout. Both buffalo were one shot kills and no tracking involved. Recovered only one of the boolits and it had expanded to about 75 caliber after going though the shoulders. Was found under hide on far shoulder. I size to .460 and this boolit will give me 1 inch groups of 3 shots at 100 yards. Velocity is close to 1900 fps out of my Marlin 1895 rifle.
If you make them too hard, they get brittle. Take some linotype and see how it compares to ACWW or ACWW/Soft lead. I use wither ACWW or ACWW/Soft lead (COWW) in equal proportions. Water quenching makes the boolit harder but not necessarily brittle like linotype. Any WFN driven at moderate velocity will get the job done in a 45/70 or .40"+ Magnum round. Shot placement, as always, is important.
Will you shoot your game in the shoulder or tight behind it?
with a 45-70 there is no need to expand
use a good boolit with a decent meplat and your golden
I don't think it matters much. I would think that a 45/70 with a well placed shot should drop a deer in short order. If you do your job it should certainly do its.
I use the 45-70 boolit of Lee 459-405-HB in my 50 cal muzzle loader with a sabot and it takes them down with no problem .Hope this help and I cast them on and soft side.
I’ve shot two deer with the 45-70. 354 grain wfn water cooled wheel weight through the shoulder on both. One bang flop, the other ran about 40 yards. Very little expansion I suspect. My bullets are extremely hard. A sharp hammer strike barely deforms the bullet.
It is fun to read the posts, but for quite awhile now there has been nothing gained or new said!
I just hardness tested my 465gr Wide Flat Nose cast of 50/50 clip on wheel weights/lead, water quenched and the Brinell hardness is right at 22.
Now to put that in perspective, the chart with my Cabin Tree hardness tester show the following -----------
WW - 11 to 12 Brinell
Quenched WW - 23 - 24
Linotype - 22
Lyman #2 - 15
The difference between the linotype at 22 Brinell and my 465gr WFN cast at 22 would be the alloy in use, which likely leaves my bullet less likely to fracture then bullets cast of the linotype but testing at the same hardness. The linotype achieves it's hardness simply by the metals that make up that alloy while the bullet cast of the 50/50 - Wheel Weight/lead alloy reaches the 22 Brinell hardness because of the tempering of a much softer base alloy
Go back and read post #13, not because it is my post, but because it states the facts as well as I can say them.
I did a lot of reading before I took the 45/70 trail and my personal results only go to reinforce the information I'd read.
Oh yes, I after many years of loading and hunting with jacketed bullets of one kind or another, I DID need to approach my first 45/70 critter with a bit of faith that what I had read so much of was in fact true. It was!
With in reasonable range and with proper shot placement, and using the Wide Flat Nose cast bullets the results are awesome!
There is far too much time and mental effort spent worrying the alloy hardness question, repeatedly, when the time and effort would be much better spent developing a bullet/load combination for OUR PERSONAL rifles, using a 400gr. +/- cast with a Wide Flat Nose profile!
By the way, the two deer I spoke of in post #13, taken with a 275/280gr Wide Flat Nose cast, both one shot kills/dropped an dead where they stood, were taken with a water quenched clip on wheel weight alloy that would test out in the 23 - 24 Brinell range.
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
You boys need to pay attention to CODOC. He pretty much has it right.
Using a 45-70 on white tails you are going to have to be incredibly lucky to find TWO exceptionally large deer to have a snowflakes chance in hell of ever recovering a bullet inside the deer even pure lead slugs that expand to double their original diameter tend to just wander through deer, trees(plural) and whatnot after going through a
deer end-to-end.
I load my marlin 1895 in the fervent hope that I may one day draw an elk tag.
Does anyone think an RCBS 45-405 cast of 20:1 lead/tin won't do the job? and Not leave a large exit hole?
I really don't think a 45-70 bullet is all that responsive to alloy short of casting them of pure Linotype.
I think any 45-70 bullet worth casting will make a finger sized hole going in and a somewhat larger (Walnut sized) hole going out with a whole lot of messed stuff in between the two.
As for "Deer" why not throw a railroad locomotive at them?
The important thing in my Marlin is avoiding commercial cast bullets with beveled bases. They never slug up to fit the bore. Leading due to hot gas running up the side of the cast bullet is very evident. Flat base bullets of any reasonable weight at any reasonable velocity are accurate.
I'm NOT a bevel base fan, but much more important is bullet to bore fit. If properly sized, there is no need for the bullets to, "slug up."
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE
Greg, I'm a fan of a harder composition with as big a meplat as possible, but it would be well worth you time to investigate the soft nose technique so well investigated and documented by one of our passed members, and much missed BruceB:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ntional-Moulds
While a bit more work than casting conventional bullets, an afternoon should yield many years of hunting bullets.
Living and hunting in a slug only state I am well versed with big holes traversing through both sides of large corn fed whitetails. Until Ohio legalized straight walled cartridges Shotgun slugs and 50 caliber muzzleloader pure lead conical boolits were my projectile of choice. I didn't expect to see the 45/70 I purchased behave any differently, and in experience, it doesn't. Unless a large bone was hit deer always ran nose down until their brain caught up the the fact that their body was dead. The shortest I had one fall was 3 high bounds. Bang, run, drop.
I keep the slugs and conical boolits found in the body cavities. Some of the Lightfield 12 gauge hybreds have mushroomed at 30 yards, completely destroying the lungs with the slug flattened on the offside hide. One deer ran 60 yards. Others have run even further. These are probably leaving the barrel at no more than 1,400 fps, give or take.
When purchasing the Marlin CB 45/70 I bought two molds, the Lee 405 FP for plinking and practice and an Accurate 405-460 gas check to push harder. The hard Lee slugs at 1,100 fps will penetrate 9 gallon water jugs, undeformed. Casting with an alloy that is soft enough to deform and only go through 4 water jugs at a MV of 1,620 fps the Accurate boolits, with a wide flat point has more chance to upset when hitting an animal. Man, this new whiz bang rifle has all the fixings of zapping deer into a death fall at the touch of a trigger, right? Not really. They perform just like the 12 gauge slugs and muzzleloader conical boolits. I shoot, deer is mortally wounded, deer runs, deer falls. Big, relatively slow chunks of lead poke holes that let the air out. I have a couple slugs from last November's big bodied buck found in the chest cavity on two longitudinal hits as it was running away at around 125 yards. If the alloy was harder they may have exited, maybe not. The energy was all contained inside the animal but it didn't seem to keep it from running even further, though. Whether a 45 caliber hole or a 50+ caliber hole, at these speeds the shock value isn't consistent to always expect a bang/flop.
Maybe if I pushed these slugs to 1,800, 1,900 or 2,000 fps the feet would drop out from underneath the target faster, or even instantly. But this Cowboy doesn't have a recoil pad and I can enjoy only so much fun at those levels of punishment. Besides, 1,620 fps is the most accurate loading, too. In reality, though I much prefer the slender rifle to shoot and hunt with, it is not any different of a weapon than what we were constrained to use prior. It isn't the hammer of Thor that some will have you believe, but it is an effective killer of deer and other assorted big critters, absolutely. Hard with a wide flat nose or soft with any type of tip that will smoosh down, if you hit it right the deer will die.
Ww alloy will take any game on earth with a 500+ gr 45-70 with the right placement I can penetrate 3 ft + with Marlin loads on a 3 ft tamarack stump
For CDOC:
"Hamish,
this bullet, the only one I've ever retrieved was found in a big cow elk after a quartering shot that took out the big/heavy upper front leg bone, then through a rib, the lungs, the guts and a full paunch and found just under the skin just ahead of the off side ham.
Velocity about 1650, weight 465gr after weight 327.9gr.
Alloy 50/50 clip on Wheel weights/lead, water quenched
CDOC"
Attachment 240083
Thanks Hamish!
What I didn't mention was, the bullet traveled about 30" +/- after taking out that big upper front leg bone! That would also be after the weight loss from 465gr to the 327.9gr.
Likely the only one of these bullets I'll ever find after shooting a critter.
In fact, two deer taken in the 2016 season had complete penetration with a .44 - 275/280gr Wide Flat Nose cast of just plain old clip on wheel weights. Both critters dead where they stood!
CDOC