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I am again taking up an attempt to successfully paper patch for my .300 Sav 99 after dismal results a couple years ago. I solicit your experiences with this cartridge, particularly with paper patch loads giving 150 to 175 grain bullets accuracy in the 2400 to 2600 fps range. I will be buying a mould dedicated to this project.
Thanks in advance
Dan
Dan,
I PP for a 300 Sav Rem760 hunting rifle. My best bullet for hunting is the 150 gr. LBT LFN. The PP is brought up and over the start of the ogive and the OAL is determined so that PP is in contact with the chamber forcing cone when the round is chambered. The PPCB is sized to 0.308"D. In the field, I'm able to chamber/unchamber a PPCB round many times without de-bulleting, but I carry a cleaning rod to de-bullet just in case. I use either WW748 or WW760, because it accelerates the bullet more gradually but gives higher velocity. My velocity is around 2600 -2700 fps. The WW748 has a lower flame temperature. I get hunting accuracy out of a hunting rifle. The case body is fully resized, but the case neck is partially resized so that the chambered round is aligned in the chamber by the unsized portion of the neck. This works for me.
Best regards,
CJR
Does your OAL permit you to seat this bullet with the base at or above the bottom of the neck? Thank you for your response.Quote:
Originally Posted by CJR
Dan
Dan,
In my stock Rem 760 300Savage chamber, the base of the PPCB 150gr. LBTLFN is right at the junction of the neck/shoulder. For my chambered PPCB round, the start of the CB ogive(covered by PP), is right against the chamber's forcing cone. As I mentioned in the past I prepare a "dummy round" , for every rifle, to measure the location of each chamber's forcing cone. I take a jacketed flat-base bullet, file/turn the base to get a sharp corner, insert it nose-down into an EMPTY case to an overly long OAL. I then, by trial and error, keep adjusting the OAL till the "dummy round" chambers easily. I now know that the sharp corner, of the inverted jacketed bullet on the "dummy round", is now against that chamber's forcing cone of that rifle. I then save that "dummy round" to quickly gage how other bullet styles/weights will work in that rifle. I can hold a new style bullet next to the "dummy round", and quickly see where the base of that CB will be in the case neck when the start of the ogive of the PPCB is against the chamber's forcing cone. That also gives me an estimate of the OAL before I actually reload the new style bullet. Depending on the rifle used, a longer OAL may or may not work. My Rem 760 allows longer OAL than the max. OAL stated for typical 300 Savage rifles. Likewise, because I final size my PPCB to 0.308"D, the sharp corner on my "dummy round" is very close to the start of the ogive of my PPCB. I also use the "dummy rounds" to experiment on varying different cylindrical engraved lengths on the CB and the effect on accuracy. In other words, I'll pick 1/8" engraving length, determine the OAL, then PP that CB up to the start of 1/8" cylindrical part I want engraved.
So when that PPCB is chambered, 1/8" cylindrical length is engraved, the PP is against the chamber forcing cone, and the OAL is acceptable. Unfortunately, engraved PPCB can de-bullet when ejecting live rounds. So the preferred technique, for hunting PPCB loads, is to place the start of the CB ogive(PP covered) against the chamber's forcing cone (i.e. no CB engraving). That allows field unloading of loaded PPCB, without de-bulleting, most of the time.
Hope this helps.
Best regards,
CJR
CJR,
Thanks. I use a similar method to help define the bullet length and shape for my application. The Sav. 99 strictly limits COL to standard in order to feed through the magazine so seating long is not a problem; seating below the neck shoulder junction is. When that happens, accuracy is gone. Your answers have given me some insights to my problem/project and I think I will order a mould based upon my conclusions. The .300 is a stinker to reload cast bullets in, at least in the Savage.
Sincerely
Dan
You can shoot cast thru em. Just not far is all.
Accuracy is always good under 50 yards.
I shot a few p/p'ed thru mine. Wasn't at all impressing me down range. I even swagged em down in caliber with the push thru's I asked Buck Shot to make me. Finally (I Quit.) So if anything now its either jacketed or a raw dropped T/L cast G/C bullet ._
I bought the Tumble Lube mold from NOE. As told designed by Ranch Dog specifically for the 300. But don't quit with your idea of P/Ping Dan you may be a whole lot luckier at it than I was. Best of Luck to yaw sir.
Overmax,
Thanks for your reply. I hope I have better luck than you. I surely like the rifle but the cartridge, even with jacketed bullets is no where the performer that my 1895 Win. .30-40 is. A neck that short is just silly.
Some clarifying comments.
Overmax
When I talk about "my hunting accuracy", I'm talking about hunting accuracy at 100 yds; i.e. 2" to 4" group size.
Dan
Many who load the short-neck 300 Savage typically full-length resize the cases. Full-length resized rounds have more clearance in the chamber. So depending on where that round is lying in the chamber, the bullet gets launched into the rifling with either a laterally-offset CG(Center of Gravity) and/or a tilted CG which in turn causes inaccuracy. There have been many techniques, used over the years, to minjmize this induced offset/titled CG ; i.e.one technique uses unsized cases with hand-seated larger diameter CB. That works well until you load a "banana-shaped case body", which when chambered, forces the bullet to one side ( i.e. offset CG again). The "full-length sized case with partial neck-sizing" that I use, which came from long-range and some benchrest shooters, seems to work the best for me. Because, when the bullet nose is seated against the chamber's forcing cone the unsized portion of the case neck centers the case neck/rear of the bullet in the chamber and the bullet is almost perfectly aligned to the rifle bore axis. Likewise, because the case body is full-length resized there is enough lateral clearance in the chamber for the "banana-shaped case body" to move laterally to help prevent any randomly forcing of the bullet to one side and/or titling it as it's chambered.
Finally, as any bullet's CG offset/titling increases, the group size increases with range. Likewise, when the velocity is high( i.e.3000+fps at 200,000+RPM), the accuracy is even more dependent on minimizing the bullet's CG offset/titling.
Best regards,
CJR
Thanks again for these tips. I have always tried to compensate for a bullet's eccentric insertion and alignment with the bore by a close fitting bore riding section. For my applications, I require the bolt (lever activated) to close with minimum resistance and am trying to achieve hunting accuracy concurrent with your stated standards. Further, the bullets must be well enough fixed to withstand carry in bullet loops, pocket or cartridge boxes.
I like those tiny little groups as we all do but with a couple exceptions, my rifles are doing well to provide hunting accuracy with jacketed ammo. A 2 inch 5 shot group from this Savage at 100 yards would be grand if the bullet is traveling fast enough to be effective at 200-250 and of low enough trajectory to make a proper hit at that range. I have achieved that with an 1895 Win. in .30-40 but this 300 is a tougher nut.
Dan
PP in a Savage 99 is going to be tough. PP in say a Sharps allows a very limited taper crimp just enough to fit the case mouth in the chamber. It allows the boolit to be fairly gently placed in the chamber where a shallow, somewhat long leade allows the bullet when launched, having likely been seated long into the rifling to set off centered in the bore and only shed paper on exiting the barrel.
The 300 Savage was at the dawn of the smokeless revolution, a smallbore express, a 20th Century hustling and bustling cartridge for the design pinnacle of the lever gun. It was meant to push out a copper jacketed spire tipped bullet with a flat trajectory. I think you will find a short, sharp lead jumping straight into well cut sharp rifling and a tight 1:10 twist.
I am not suggesting that you can't make it work. I am telling you that I wouldn't have the patience to make it work.
If you do, verily, you're a better man than I, Gunga-din.
Bullet quality, of jacketed bullets or PPCBs, is key! Many, many years ago store-bought ammo was garbage in terms of accuracy because the jacketed bullet quality was so poor. As the bullet manufacturers discovered what parameters were causing inaccuracy; i.e. varying jacket thickness that offset the Center of Gravity (CG) of the bullet, proper location of Center of Pressure (CP) to CG in the bullet, etc., then jacketed bullet accuracy started to improve. Sierras being a prime example. The same laws of physics govern CB that are PP'd as well. Minimal CG offset and proper location of CP to CG in the CB is just as important.
Failure is part of the game with hi-vel PPCB (i.e. 3000+fps at 200,000 RPM) as all the physical forces that pull the CB off its flight path are much greater so everything has to be just right for success. But what I've found is that mixed in with the failures is an occasional stunning performance. That's what motivates me to find the "proper PPCB technique" that applies to all calibers. As an example, I had established an accuracy level in my standard factory 308W rifle using match grade Sierra bullets before I started PP'g. So one day at the range, after shooting PPCB at 3000+fps (chron'd) and 200,000RPM, I looked into my spotting scope to check the group. I was stunned and didn't believe what I was seeing. So I walked the 100 yds to check the target. First two rounds touching, third round opened the group to 0.5"-0.75". I repeated that PPCB load grouping over and over in three years of shooting. A group better than any other group that I had fired with Sierras in that 308W rifle. I was "hooked" on PPCB. And yes I know there are some that say you need a 5,10,or 20 shot group to establish proper accuracy. That's fine if you're shooting in competition and have to put so many rounds on target for score. But I'm a hunter, I may get a 2nd shot, but a 3rd shot is highly unlikely. So if I can reliably produce the same 3-round group size over and over in a three year period with that hunting PPCB load- I'm happy. I haven't found a deer yet that stands around for me to fire twenty rounds at him.
So failure doesn't bother me. I view it as a learning curve to further the state-of-the-art of PPCB. PPCB shooting is a blast! Hang in there, because one day you too will be "stunned" when it all comes together for you. It turns out that PPCB'g is also a good developer of patience.
Best regards,
CJR