Forming .455 Webley Mk 2 Cases from .45 Colt - A Different Approach

I originally posted this in the Wheelguns, Pistols, and Handcannons forum but realized it should probably better reside here, as the thread deviated from covering the Webley pistol more to making of the brass for it.

Having recently acquired a Webley Mk VI and wanting to reload for it, I bought a set of Lee Dies and a Lee Factory Crimp die for 45 Colt (that was previously listed on their website as also working with the 455 Webley Mk 2, but more on that later) and went looking for empty brass. Whoops, none to be found except very expensive Bertram brass at $2/each from Midway.

Numerous threads talk about converting the .45 Colt case by trimming the rims (and length), so I made a few that way using the "chuck one in the lathe and thin the rim" trick - which worked, but I thought it to be way too labor-intensive. After thinking about the problem for a while and figuring there had to be a simpler way, I came up with a swaging die that reduces the thickness of the Colt brass without removing any metal, and at the same time facilitates cutting off the excess length.

Referring to the attached diagram, the die is a simple affair that's intended to be used either in an arbor press or with a hammer. Basically what it does is swage the top/forward surface of the Colt rim, which is nominally .060" thick, reducing it by .025" down to .035", which is the maximum thickness for the 455 Webley. The diameter of the rim increases somewhat, but doesn't seem to interfere with loading in my Mk VI.

The depth of the "step" in the die can be adjusted to yield whatever rim thickness works best in your Webley, but given their age, I'm guessing most would favor the maximum.

The way I use the die is to insert a sized 45 Colt case, place it mouth up on a smooth steel plate, place a half-inch socket extension over the exposed case and hammer it until the bottom surface of the die contacts the steel plate. (I'd use an arbor press, but don't have one...) Then I cut off the excess case at the top of the die, remove the case and trim it to .760" in a case trimmer, and finally chamfering the case mouth. Goes faster than the time it takes to talk about it.

I've loaded, fired, and reloaded a bunch of these cases already, using the data that came with the Lee dies, and all worked great! So until Fiocchi makes another run of .455 Webley, or Starline starts making the cases (they told me they expected to make them this year - 2015!) I'll be punching mine out from 45 Colt cases.

My die turned out a bit rough since I'm not a professional machinist, so I don't intend to make any more - please don't ask. Feel free to take my drawing to your own machinist if you want to have one made, or make your own if you have a lathe.

Attachment 134686

Bud

This is a pretty long established way of thinning a case rim. You could squeeze the rim in a powerful vice, or built an inexpensive press with slabs of steel at top and bottom, joined together by bolts, and a cheap hydraulic car jack.

Thank you for this, This was exactly what I need and involves much less brass filings than shaving. While .455 brass can be found of one waits it is routinely expensive and of spotty availability so this is a great tool to have. Maybe even have a guided bolt like a post digger to have consistent impact. How many hits with a hammer are needed to fully swage it and how hard?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ballistics in Scotland

This is a pretty long established way of thinning a case rim.

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Ah well, nothing new under the sun. Still don't see this recommended much with nearly everyone I've spoken to stating either a trim jig or a lathe is needed.

I have 100 new webley mk ll cases I would like to sell.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bob208

I have 100 new webley mk ll cases I would like to sell.

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PM sent regarding the brass.

An alternative method if you have a lathe would be to skim a little off the rear of the rim, all the way to the primer pocket. You would probably get rid of the non-factual LC headstamp, and you wouldn't need some sort of fixture to hold the case, as you would when turning the front of the rim. The centre of the case is thin air, in the primer pocket, so even an abused three-jaw chuck would be accurate enough.

A lot of cases will allow the primer to seat slightly below the level of the original case-head. So you might or might not need to .the primer pocket. The best way is probably some kind of punch, making the case ever so slightly balloon-headed. But modern .45LC brass is frequently used at far greater pressure than the Webley, so that should be harmless.

Would be rather tiresome to do a bag full of brass compared to simply hitting a bit of pipe with a hammer 200 times compared to setting up a lathe 200 times.

Will have to see, already ordered 200 shells of colt and I don't have a lathe. Will post results when I get them and try this.

If you have to start from scratch then why go for the short brass?
I made some 220+ Winchester 45LC into MK I brass wich is the same length as 45 ACP and have more internal volume.
The Limeys made the case shorter for Cordite to burn more evenly, but it's been more than 75+ years since you coyld buy it so why comply to a "standard" made many moons ago that has no merit in todays world?

Why not make cases that work better (less bullet jump in the chamber) and are easier to reload powder/pressure wise?
Every Webley revolver made will chamber the MK I cartridge and it's even stamped on them!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.455_Webley

I've got someone asking me about making the MKll and MKlV brass and I plan on using 45AR brass (Auto Rim). If everything goes well I'll be offering those for .50ea plus shipping. Thing is those will be seasonal, I just came in from the shop, it's 94deg in there and if I didn't sweat out 2gal an hour I wouldn't be surprised. And that was just making 351WSL brass which is easier than those Webley cases.

GONRA sez "45AR" brass has too small head diameter for this application.
OK - it WILL "go bang" - but swells up a little.
DO IT CORRECTLY and use .45 Long Colt brass instead.

(Just purchased 500 rds. new Starline .45 Long Colt brass
to make into .455 Webley & Scott Auto brass.
Did this decades ago with perfect results in the 1913 British Webley & Scott
and WW I Colt pistols chambered for .455 W&S Auto.)

I used 45AR (Auto Rim) brass, it was good except for the head diameter being small. Had a person have 1 piece slip past the star extractor and the fun began.

I'm not going the 45LC route, the head diameter is the same size so why bother with it.

I have a batch of Starline 45 S&S Schofield brass on the way for a customer. The head diameter is .010 larger than the 45AR and the 45LC which makes it right on the low of the tolerance as far as specs go. You can still make the MK1 and MKlV out of it since the length is the only difference.

I'll be adding those to my VS page at .50ea plus shipping in the near future...

I made one of these rings and tried it.
It kinda sorta works but i find the cartridges have a tendensy to tilt ever so slightly in the cylinder and will hang up on the inside edge (the part where a normal case will have a lathe turned recess.

It does what is intended but leaves the cases rough on the edge.

Everyone is aware by now that Starline is now making/selling Webley 455 Mk II brass, right? First run sold out; next batch due to be shipped end of April 2018...

In the meantime you can still buy .455 cases modified from Starline .45 Schofield brass from Ron Reed:

https://shop.reedsammo.com/455-Eley-...5eleybrass.htm The longer Mk1 case

https://shop.reedsammo.com/455-Weble...ebleybrass.htm or the shorter Mk2 case

And at $30 per box of 50 it is a bargain.

I also wanted some longer .455 brass for my S&W. I also made them from 45 Colt brass. I really don't like having the headstamp on the brass to be something different than what it is used for, so I did things a bit different. I started with a bag of Winchester 45 colt brass and set up the cases in the three jaw chuck of my lathe. I then cut off the head stamp area removing the 45 colt logo. This required about eight to ten thousands off of the head of the case. I did a half dozen to see if this would work. I then used a carbide cutter made for cleaning up the primer pockets, it has a stop coller with a set screw in it to set the depth. I used a battery drill motor to turn this and recut the depth of the primer pocket to a depth of .128, the original depth of the Winchester primer pocket. Worked great! Then I made an manderal to hold the case head about half depth of the rim, and using another turned piece that fit very close to the inner form of the case, inserted this into the case using the live center of the tailstock in my lathe, I cut off the front part of the rim until I had the rim thickness of .045. This gave me .002 clearance in my pistol to the recoil shield. Then I cut the case about .020 longer than needed. By being careful one can cut off the cases without running the cutter into the manderal . Then the cases were finished to length of .884. I rebroke the chamfer on the primer pocket, and primers seated great! I had one case out of a hundred that had an off set primer flash hole, so I sectioned it to see how much support the interior primer pocket hole was left after deeping the primer pocket. On my cases there is .057 material left from the bottom of the pocket to the inside of the case. More that enough to support the primer! Now that they are prepped all that is left to do is flair the cases and load them. Now I have a hundred cases that have no head stamp on them, there will be no problem knowing what these cases are for. The toolman.

In the Fifties when .455 Colt New Service and S&W Hand Ejector revolvers started getting sold out of British service. As Webley ammo was a bit scarce, it was not uncommon for folks on this side of the Atlantic to run a .45 Colt reamer into the .455 chambers. IF done well, it would allow the revolver to chamber both .455 Webley and .45 Colt ammunition. As the Colt cartridge has a thicker rim, that is smaller in diameter than the Webley, it looks like a very slight counterbore at the mouth of the chamber. Since the Webley rim is larger in diameter, it bridges the counterbore and lies along the original surface of the cylinder. Swaging .45 Colt rims like the OP mentions and making them a bit bigger in diameter is no big deal.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachm...9&d=1457028194