high velocity with 311413 Squib Bullets in 308 Win AR10.

Thank you for the defense of Phil's work. I've tried to get every book he has written because I think his writing is good and sound on the techniques to getting as accurate as a bullet and rifle that could be made. He detailed accurate and high velocity loads with that 311413 mold with 30-06 chambered Springfield 03s but I don't recall him declaring a custom slow-twist barrel being employed. He knew all the best barrel-makers but I thought he was developing loads for the average shooter when he was discussing this cast bullet being used.

Regarding ballistic testing with powder companies, I would love to know what modern powder was the closest equivalent to the out-of-production Alliant flake powder called Sharpshooter that he used and recommended for this mold.

Sharpe, Mattern, Hatcher, Nonte, Grennell and O'Connor are the folks I really enjoy reading. Elmer Keith I have always had to to take with a grain of salt along with Jeff Cooper and Craig Boddington and don't even get me going on David Fortier.... Modern writers of note for me are Mike Venturino, Terry Weiland and John Barsness.

Sounds like your -413 mold would be perfect for an Enfield or one of the other Fat 30 rifles out there and sized at .314" or .316". I have two that cast out at .310" and .311" respectively. The .311 mold has been modified into a flatbase mold that shoots great out to 100 yards but I've never taken it past that since I have to keep the velocity low because it doesn't have a gascheck capability now. It's a great plinker-trainer for the kids though.

16" 1:10 LR308 does this @ 200 with this. H4895, 2400 fps. Yea, only 3 shots, but all did the job. Not a lot of nose support.
Attachment 214115
Attachment 214116
Edit: these are PCd!

Nice work, popper.

Every 100fps over 2200 gets harder and harder, doesn't it?

I don't know what Sharpe's "pet Springfield" twist was, but I do know it was a custom barrel. What I was getting at, if you wanted to duplicate that group, it sure would be easier to do with a 1-14 or so.

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Originally Posted by HangFireW8

Uh, no. The long shank on the 311413 is just a boattail,

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Uh, Yes....

The last several posts delve on unsupported nose some..... Is it really?? I suppose it is natural to think the nose steers as we are used to our car..... But to save you a bunch of work on load development think 'throat fit'! This is usually a combination of lower ogive and front band (if there is one).... A good fit here 'steers' the best! (More times than not) Now think of your car being one of those high dollar European babies that steers with both front and back wheels! So.... The Squib nose is unsupported? Is it now???? Putting the Mic on bullets from my Dad's 413 mold shows about a husky 1/16" length in front of the top groove being a bore ride dimension! (.302") One very accurate Savage 340 .30-30 I have may be ugly but its cast bullet performance is not! It shoots the modified Squib above excellent!! It has a 'dynamic' throat fit in this gun! I used the word 'dynamic'..... That's the fit we are after! The fit the bullet sees at launch! That ol' .30-30 happens to have it with that 413 mod and its own short 'throat'......

OK...... The Squib bullet acts more times than not like a forktruck!!!:veryconfu Yes, due to things already mentioned it can steer from the rear! Have you ever drove a fast forktruck wide open? Try it! Shoot a Squib at 2500fps in a normal throat..... same thing!

You've a 'vivid' imagination HangFireW8! Boattail huh? Now IF you positively dropped the gascheck on every single shot.... And you pushed it to 2500fps, and you shot it out to 400 or 500 yards you could possibly have a small rebated boattail affect. But you can't hit a garbage can lid at a 100 yards with that load.... then shoot 500 for a maybe trajectory gain?? HAH!

Where do you get this baloney ??? From Phil Sharpe?? But then.... I repeat myself.......

Eutectic

At this point the thread can just wait until the bullets actually get fired as being a naysayer at this point if just kavetching around a pickle barrel during a winter storm. Here is the section of Sharpe's Book that got me to thinking about using the Squibb in my 308Win AR10
Attachment 214148 Attachment 214149 Attachment 214150

Slip on/fall off gas checks are a historical reality I don't even need to quote old books on. I still have a bunch. There is plenty of discussion of them on this forum. If you deny they exist, it is you with the baloney problem.

The boat-tail, is, well, obvious. Just look at it.

We all know what the boolit was designed for by Mr. Squibb. Low velocity target practice, with a design which makes it "challenging" to drive hard.

I don't need to be lectured on boolit fit.

Neither Phil Sharpe, or any of us, were ever perfect.

I'm done here.

I run the same ammo in the 24" 1:10 with same results @ 100, 2700 fps, never shot it @ 200. Actually above was my first 200 yd work. I push a 145gr PB in the BO to 2100, no problem. I don't use BT boolits.

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Originally Posted by bruce drake

Interesting on your velocity. I haven't run the load above through my chronometer yet but used the LEE Reduction formula for reducing velocity to meet the desired value. Current data has IMR4895 with a 200grain bullet at a max 43.2gr and an expected 2745fps. Reducing down to 2225fps gave me an even 38gr to drop thrown the measure. I may not even get 2225fps since I'm shooting this through a 20" AR barrel and not a longer bolt rifle barrel.

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I was using a PACT 1 chronograph and temperature was 35 degrees.

Let us know your velocity and accuracy when you get a chance to check it. I am really curious to see.[smilie=s:

Me too! I won't get to shoot it at 100 yards until I go through club orientation and some service hours next month since I'm currently moving my club membership to a more rifle centered club after letting my previous club membership lapse after they jumped prices through the roof to support their Trap shooting program. I don't like spending $$$ at local gunshop/indoor range for shooting at 25 yard with no way to set a chrono up in their booths with incandescent tubes. I have a Shooting Chrony Alpha Master chronograph so I know the numbers will be accurate once I get to shoot the loads over the sensors in daylight.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ideal-31141...UAAOSwt4xahbec
If anyone else wants to jump on my 311413 crazy train...

I take the Lee 170 gr. .309 FN, size to .308 with a gas check, then square the base in a 6 Ogive point forming swage die. It comes out with a slightly altered nose profile but still has a flat nose and is .3085 diameter. I then PC with Eastwood powder (shake & bake) and size to .309. They print 1-1/4 inch groups at 100yds in my FN PBR with 30 gr. of IMR 3031. I can swage them to a pointed profile but have found that they tend to pattern with the alloy hardness I've used so far. I recently added some super hard to this alloy and will try a few to see if accuracy is improved. A .310 or .311 diameter might produce better accuracy. I'll have to invest in a couple more Lee push throughs at some point to find out.

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Originally Posted by Eutectic

I have a 3" benchtop lathe I've setup for bullet modification. Collets and precision stops make modifications quick and easy! All the molds I've designed on Accurate except one have had test bullets machined to test first.
Back to the squib, 311413, and its design..... I've modified it at the gascheck shank as already mentioned and shortened the nose to a 3/16" meplat. This leaves a 147gr bullet much improved!

Col. Harrison comment above about nose slumping to one side..... Why didn't it slump evenly? Think of that L O N G gas check shank starting the bullet off center........

Above 311413 mod pictured.

Eutectic
Attachment 214012

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Did ACCURATE catalog this mold? If so, what number is it? Thanks.

Attachment 220773
First shots with the 311413 bullets in a 308Win AR10. The sights were still set up for a 200 yard match scheduled for next week so a wee high for 100 yards but I was looking for a group size to build from first. Fully cycled and good enough recoil.

Attachment 220774
I'm considering this 311291 group to be the control bullet for the process since the bullet weights are close to the same. This load I'll have to tweak as the bullets were engraving in the rifling and I had to seat the cartridges with the Forward Assist button when loading from the magazine for the first time. I'll probably seat them a .1" deeper next time for better feeding.

I may try the faster loads listed on the load cards next time I'm at the range but I'll also build a 2000fps and 1900fps loads to test as well. Oh, and the powder is IMR4895.

More to come. I will probably post an update on the barrel bore after shooting the polymer coated bullets after I dissassemble and clean it tonight.

Bruce

I forgot to bring my Chrono yesterday. I'll add it to my range list for next weekend.

One should to stop and consider the reason for pointy boolits. BC!! Why do we have VL & EL bullets? BC!! One CAN get the HV with a pointy cast, they do feed better (because the ramps are made for pointy bullets). If it does what you need, fine, else try something else. Pointy boolits are for maintaining FPS at longer distance and reducing 'drop', nothing else. I've loaded SSTs for longer range pig hunting as it INCREASES probability of a good hit. Military did/does the same.

My goal is to get a good enough group to take it back to 300 yards shooting in NRA Highpower matches at my gun club. After that, I'll see if it has enough to make it to 600 yards down at Camp Atterbury's full course range.

I modified the 31-165 to eliminate the L.G. and shrank the nose a few thous. so PC isn't a problem. 4-5% Sb & 0.5% Cu. gives you a very strong boolit that doesn't slump (H.T. of course). With the long shank and big grooves there is a lot of space that needs to get filled at the boom.

well, my personal health went weird last year and my family also ramped up more of my personal time as one son finished college and got established on his own just as one other son finished high school and is in college now himself and youngest son is now a senior in high school...But now I'm back, I hope. with two more spirepoint bullet designs to test in the AR10.Attachment 248348
The first one, I've had for a while but I want to see what the stubby little bullet can do with some velocity behind it in a 308Win since it performs very well in my other .30 and .31 caliber rifles (300BLK, 7.62x39, 30 Herrett, 308x1.5, 30-30 Win, 7.7 Arisaka, 303 Brit) Lyman 311359 - Lyman says 115gr but I own two and with my alloy both weigh when PC-coated and checked at 120gr each.
The second, A Lyman 311365, I got off ebay in April but I just have not felt the urge to cast any bullets all summer but today, I finally did get this mold out and cast up around 50 to sort, size and load. I did a quick weighing of the fresh cast bullets and they weighed out at 199.5 so after casting and checking should weigh close to 205gr. I don't push for a high velocity load with this in the AR10 but I do want to see if I can build an accurate and functional load in my AR10 for a potential hunting bullet at under 200 yards.
There is also a new 4-16x44 scope for this rifle to zero as well so perhaps I can get some progress on this thread started again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bruce drake

well, my person health went weird last year and my family also ramped up more of my personal time as one son finished college and got established on his own just as one other son finished high school and is in college now himself and youngest son is now a senior in high school...But now I'm back, I hope. with two more spirepoint bullet designs to test in the AR10.Attachment 248348
The first one, I've had for a while but I want to see what the stubby little bullet can do with some velocity behind it in a 308Win since it performs very well in my other .30 and .31 caliber rifles (300BLK, 7.62x39, 30 Herrett, 308x1.5, 30-30 Win, 7.7 Arisaka, 303 Brit) Lyman 311359 - Lyman says 115gr but I own two and with my alloy both weigh when PC-coated and checked at 120gr each.
The second, A Lyman 311365, I got off ebay in April but I just have not felt the urge to cast any bullets all summer but today, I finally did get this mold out and cast up around 50 to sort, size and load. I did a quick weighing of the fresh cast bullets and they weighed out at 199.5 so after casting and checking should weigh close to 205gr. I don't push for a high velocity load with this in the AR10 but I do want to see if I can build an accurate and functional load in my AR10 for a potential hunting bullet at under 200 yards.
There is also a new 4-16x44 scope for this rifle to zero as well so perhaps I can get some progress on this thread started again.

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The higher velocities will probably require you to add copper to your alloy or the centrifugal forces will cause bullet to self destruct. I have gotten 2750 FPS using a neck sized lee 200gr pced bullet in rr ar 10.

Bama,

Thanks for the tidbit on adding copper to the alloy. I'll look into that. I don't intend to push either the 120gr, 180gr or the 200gr bullets that fast but if I start seeing issues when I get above 2400fps, I'll see about finding powdered copper to add to the mixing pot.

Bruce