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This year I used an RCBS 30-180-SP GC boolit over 32.0 Grains of H4895 and WLP in reformed Winchester Sweedish Mauser cases for deer hunting with a 7.5 MAS rifle. I had good knock down on three deer so far with these round nosed boolits. So how important is it really to have a large flat point on the front of the boolit for good kill power? Or doesn't it make any difference? :confused:
My thinking is that it has to do with the alloy and speed. I am no expert, but it seems like the flat points perform better at lower speeds than round.
What he said. Large flat points are good with hard alloy, better than round ones. If it is a soft enough alloy to expand, doesn't matter as much. I'm not sold on hard bullets with a wide meplat under 35 caliber. I could be wrong, I just don't know. Sounds like it works great in larger calibers. I shot a small deer with a 32 hard cast flat nose and he went maybe 30 yards. Seemed like an ok wound channel, but it didn't knock my socks off.
I'm currently thinking about this myself as I am planning to hunt exclusively with cast slugs next year. Seems to me like velocity, distance from muzzle to target, and boolit hardness have alot to do with it. I usually water drop all my boolits but I'm thinking my deer boolits for .30 WCF will be best served by air cooling to help them expand and make the alloy less brittle. Of course, with the .45-70 expansion doesn't matter too much!!
I was wondering the exact same thing, and in fact was going to post a thread on it. What if one was to take a round nose boolit and file a flat on the tip? The boolit that inspired my thoughts is the Lyman 7mm #287346. It is a 135 grain round nose gas check. Any thoughts?
You all have a 22 LR rifle, yes? The gardening season is at a close. Take a normal, soft lead, round nose, 22 LR round and shoot it into a soft squash, cantalope, or watermellon at 50 yards. Snip or file a nice flat on another and give it a go. You will be very surprised at the difference.
Paco Kelly sells his Nasti-Nose 22 kit for a reason.
In Taylor's African Rifles and Cartridges, he states to use a bullet with a nose no more pointed than a round nose, with a flat nose better. I agree.
Don, it does make a difference, but velocity and alloy matter too.
I shot a doe at 150yds with a 311284 and it did a good job. WW alloy air cooled at 1850 fps from my 30-06. If I was using a harder alloy I'd want a flat nose like 311407, to give the projectile an edge, so to speak. :)
I'd use a medium alloy, push it hard and aim for bone. :) (not the horns but shoulder bone. :) )
Flat is good. Ranch Dog profiles, made by Lee or NOE slaps the stuffing anything it hits.
Lesser sized flat or rounded profiles work fine too. My single favorite 30-30 bullet is nthe SEAC) # 316...and it's not known fo "flatness".
But I pounded 6 pigs with six shots in 60 seconds, so I know it works and feeds like corn through a goose.
last weekend my brother asked for another 100 "of this kind... the Ranch Dog profile which blows good sized holes through pig SHOULDERS.
He simply couldn't believe this was a lowly , not too loud, soft recoiling 30-30.
No other centerfire in his inventory get used anymore, as the 30-30 is just too much fun!
i have seen better results from flat nose boolits too.
i file a small flat on my 22 boolits for hunting also,it keeps the foot chases down.
The three deer I shot with the 30 caliber all had complete penetration, with a small hole going in and a wound channel and exit hole of about 1.5" in diameter or more. And much larger when the boolit passed through bone. One went through the back bone and completely shattered it. I am casting plain wheel weights and just dropping them on an old towel. And these were from the pointed RCBS 30-180-SP GC mold. I don't have any idea what the chronographed velocity is though, but they seem to be able to hit deer at varying distances out to 150 yards using the stock military sights set on 100 meters. Off the shooting bench the sights seem to be on target at 100 yards. My guess is the long boolits are not drilling a 30 Cal hole straight through but tumbling through the deer body after striking bone on the way in. So am not sure if a flat point will have a negligible effect on the killing power of a long boolit. If thats the case will a slow velocity 7mm or 6.5 mm boolit do the same thing? I have been reluctant to try the Swedish Mauser or the 7x57 Mauser with cast boolits on deer because of the light boolits. :cbpour:
Both caliber and correct alloy hardness are needed.
There is not much of a flat nose on the Lyman 358009 bullet or a round ball. Each can be effective at making meat.
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Cast slugs have brought my admiration for the .30 WCF to new heights. It has long been my observation that jwords in this cartridge make it recoil harder than it should, not to mention they are pricey. I have bony shoulders and plastic or metal butt plates make for sore shooting. Since I switched to cast my shooting enjoyment and accuracy have gone way up. I can even pull the 40 pound Marlin trigger in a semi-controlled fashion now that I don't fear a shooter/stock collision with each shot.
Well not to down play the sucess folks have with the smaller calibers, but after doing much reading before taking the plunge to hunt with cast boolits, I sure recomend that anyone goint out to buy a cast boolit rifle, look at the .44 caliber as a minimum, and better the .45.
Everything I read about the effectiveness of the WFN or LFN boolit profile in the .45 is true, in spades!
At least as far as my 3 deer and 2 elk seem to indicate.
Forget all the tales of extreme recoil, as if that is the case, maybe you are pushing that big boolit waaaay faster then needed, the butt stock of your rifle is poorly designed or you simply need to get a good, thick, soft, recoil pad installed.
Let me tell you that a 465gr WFN at 1600 - 1700fps is all kinds of deadly!
Crusty Deary O'Coot
I have shot deer with a 320 grain WFN (wider flat nose) boolit out of my .44 mag with good results and also with my .45-70 using 520 grain WFN boolits. What I was trying to get to here on this series of posts is the effectiveness of using much smaller calibers with rounded noses for shooting deer at longer ranges. So far this year we have tested 190 grain boolits out of a 30 caliber and a 220 grain boolit out of .303 British to good effect. Is it now time to go for a deer with a 7mm Mauser in a pointed or round nosed boolit? Or even the 6.5 x 55 Swedish Mauser with a round nose boolit? Or am I looking at a much higher chance of tracking a deer for a long ways with minimal blood trail? :cbpour:
Don, congrats on ur bean field pantry fillers. I have taken one of our blacktail brush bucks with the Lee 130 gr rn in my 7-08 and two with the Lyman 287308 160 gr. All three were shots thru at least one shoulder and boolits completely passed thru, range varied from 15 to 80 yds and velocity in the low 2000 range. Only one of the deer traveled much more than 20 feet, maybe 20-30 yds. All boolits cast from an alloy of 5.1 lbs ww, 3.1 lbs Linotype and .6 lbs 50/50 solder, no heat treatment and sized to .289" . When these are fired into wet magazines and recovered they expand out to 35 cal sometimes but not always? Yet, they work fine on deer. Use these Lee boolits ahead of 5.0 grs Hodgdon Tite Group for squirrel hunting at less than 1100 fps and they are very accurate and quiet
For years I used the 180 grain Winchester RN soft points (J-bullet), in a # 3 Ruger 30-40 Krag running about 175 fps slower than the Winchester factory load. It was very accurate at that speed in a short barreled gun and a sure killer on southside VA whitetails of all sizes with a fair shot. Never recovered a bullet though. I would think a moderately driven softer alloy would do as well.
A lot of our cast FN hype comes from using harder alloys to up velocity, tube feeds , and similar. Yet until recently most all bullet manufacturers offered jacketed RNs for tube feed guns. Why not softer alloy RNs for us, especially with more common usage now of slower propellants getting velocities up or allowing softer compositions on boolits?
BvT
I have never seen anyone post a picture of a recovered boolit that was still "Flat" on the nose
in fact, all are rounded to some extent, but usually flatter than a round nose, more like about 0.400 radius...
I'm going to take a SWAG that pretty much all but very hard cast round out in the first 1/2" or so of penetration.
Therefore I would take another SWAG that any nose shape other than a hard point is going to offer some resistance to penetration, and therefore will upset to some degree, and continue to do so as momentum allows.
Using BruceB's method of softpointing, even a sharp pointed boolit will not be pointed almost immediately after passing through the hide/ribs of a game animal
again, this is just a guess, as I doubt one could actually test this without some serious highspeed photography
Nanuk,
The high speed photography would be great!
However, and I base this only on the results I see on the critters taken, 4 deer and 2 elk, that my WFN boolit stays pretty much flat. Something is for sure creating that awesome wound channel.
On my first elk, a quartering shot through HEAVY shoulder bone, one rib, the lungs, a heavy/full/huge paunch, before stopping under the hide just ahead of the off side ham, the nose did round off. However, with anything other then a true solid made of something other then lead, most any bullet/boolit is going to deform with the heavy/hard going that one had.
However, on my deer I doubt there is much to change the nose profile of these big cast boolits.
AS I have stated other times and places, I have noted since using the WFN cast for hunting that the entry wound through the hide is MUCH bigger then I have ever see with a "J" bullet. On last Friday's deer, 5/8 - 3/4".
So, as said, something is creating those big wound channels and I suspect it is that flat nose.
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
i'd suspect it is the air and water/tissue thats being shoved out of the way by the flat nose.
picture how a torpedo moves through water.
then picture the cavitation a flat nose would create in the water.
that's the difference.
a flat nose will create air in water which will allow a skin[of air] to develop around the object allowing it to move through the water easier/faster.
inside an animal is more a mix of air and water and that cavitation will radiate out further from the flat nose.
the disruption of the nose shape will also create this affect but can slow it's penetrating ability when the frontal diameter overcomes the inertia.