Converting .38 Special Brass to Take Large Pistol Primers

So, I did this a while back for reasons that I don't exactly remember at the moment... but while I don't recall the reasons, the process I came up with worked well enough that I made about 300 LPP .38 special cases. I later turned them all into .380 rook cases, but that's probably another story.

I got a 3/8 collet for the lathe that opened just enough to accept a sized case. I used a collet stop so that the brass would slide in and lock down consistently at the same depth +/- .001". I used a 5.3mm Carbide end mill to machine the PP to depth of .120 using a micrometer stop. Then they went into the primer pocket swager, followed by deburring the flash-hole. Primers seated fine, I reduced loads slightly, and other than slightly wider SD's all was well with the world.

Getting everything set up took some work, but once it was all done, the conversion was easy, and it didn't take too long to do 100 pieces of brass.

Cool, thanks for that info!

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Originally Posted by Bazoo

From my research of SPP use in 45 acp, I don't think the difference between large and small primers would be enough to warrant any reduction in powder.

Sorry, didnt mean to contradict you outpost, we posted at the same time.

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I think that within the normal range of pressure-tested load data you are generally correct, but if the load is near max. I would still recommend the 10% reduction in an abundance of caution until the velocity can be validated and the charge adjusted.

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Originally Posted by DaveM

Cool, thanks for that info!

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In case it wasn't clear, I did of course trim all of the brass to uniform length before chucking them in the collet...

Sinclair makes carbide primer pocket reamers in the three different sizes that are built so they will only cut to proper depth. However you would probably have to pre drill to just under .210 and then use the Sinclair tool. I would try to open some to lpp but I have more spp than I'm likely to ever use.

So my end mill order arrived today, but they sent me the wrong one. (bangs head) Going to see about an exchange but this will delay the project.

I am rapidly running out of SP and have several folks who need 9mm and 38 spl. I was thinking of doing this to some 9X19 cases but have no lathe. I could prbly rig some sort of collet on the drill press spindle or table... If one of y'all who have a plentiful supply would part with any, I have brass, powder, boolits and some odd (for me) ammo, and LR, SR and LP to trade.
Ed <><

I bought some Federal ammo from a LGS for my 6.5 Creedmoor without checking. When I set up to reload them I found they have SRP's. I talked about doing this on those cases, this was back in April or May. Several folks said to just get some small rifle primers, but they were already gone every place I checked. I am interested if there is anyone out there with some SRP's he would let go of, who is not too far from Quincy, IL, I'd be interested in paying for them if I didn't get gouged.
I don't have the funds to get a new set up with a lathe. I guess I could try on my drill press.

I modified 50 .454 Casull cases to accept LP primers a while back. I do have a lathe, and I used an extensive set of numbered drill bits until I found the right size (which I don't recall offhand). I ground the bit as flat as possible, drilled, then used a Lyman primer pocket uniformer to insure a flat base for the primer and anvil. It worked fine, but takes a lot of time.

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Originally Posted by cwlongshot

Not when your prepared... I dont have any shortages. ;)
CW

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I learned my lesson the last time around.
I FINALLY listened to the little voice in my head that said "...stock up".
I probably have enough components to last the rest of my lifetime. :)
BTW I am 72......

Dave M I would use a drill the dia and grind a pilot on the end to fit the flash hole 1/4"-5/16" long and sharpen the edges like a counterbore. The pilot helps keep it from jumping chattering when starting the cut. over the drill a short piece of tubing to use as a stop. Set drill in chuck to where tube only allow depth of cut. run drill in to where the tube touches and your done

I have found flash holes to be off center quite a bit on some brass. I would use a drill slightly larger than .210 and lightly cut a few thou into the small pp just enough to form a taper for a Sinclair lp primer pocket uniformer to start centered. Then feed in until it stops. Don't lock the tail stock which will allow a bit of movement to follow the taper to center. I might try making a few if swmbo will give me a bit of free time.

I made some progress on this project today. The basic tool is a .210" diameter chucking reamer with a stop collar set to 0.129" reaming depth. The stop collar was made from 1/2" 6061 aluminum rod. It's held in place with an M4 screw I had in one of my miscellaneous parts bins.

Attachment 271867

To use it, I chucked deprimed a .38 Special case in the lathe and held the reamer in a drill chuck in the lathe's tailstock.

I found that because of the small clearances, brass chips built up between the head of the case and the collar. I had to withdraw in several times per case to clear the chips with a brush and pick. It was slow going.

Attachment 271868

But eventually, I converted five cases to accept large pistol primers. To test, I seated CCI LPPs. They seated easily, maybe a little too easily. It might be better to use a .209" diameter reamer because .210" is the maximum for large primers.

Attachment 271870

I plan to do another 5 cases tomorrow and then load them will mild charges so I can test them on my next trip to the range.

If you have a primer pocket swaging tool you might try .208 and then swaging up to final size. The swaging would produce a very accurate size and a slightly harder smoother surface.

I do not have a primer pocket swager but that's a good suggestion.

I modified another 5 cases today in my lathe. I loaded those and the 5 I modified yesterday with 4.4 grains of Unique, a CCI LPP, and a .358 160 grain LSWC from Matt's Bullets. I also loaded another 50 in unmodified brass using Sellier & Bellot SPPs.

The round on the left is an unmodifed case. The 2 on the right are modified.

Attachment 271921

I should get to try them next weekend.

I modified 200 38 spl cases to large primer some years ago for wax bullet loads. but I also opened the flash holes up to .105 dia. Reason being I didnt want them getting loaded with full power loads.
I ground the drill pilot .375 long and .105 dia on a drill the dia I needed. flat sharpened the large dia. this gave me flutes all the way back not just on the face like a uniformer. The tube over allowed chips room to get out. If I remember I could do 5 or so slide tube off and clear chips. I did mine in a hardringe lathe. The big pain was cranking the tail stock spindle in and out to change cases.

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Originally Posted by FISH4BUGS

.
I probably have enough components to last the rest of my lifetime. :)
BTW I am 72......

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How long is that, 2 1/2 months?? :roll:

Just kidding, I am 1 year behind you,,
and I can not tell you why I bought 12,000 to 15,000 primers when they were $20/thou,,
:mrgreen:

Luckily, my "fun round" is 44MAG, so I have the large pockets already,,

Would it be safer to just buy a 44MAG for high volume plinking?
One just sold in the Swappin & Sellin section for $400,,

I guess I feel my safety is worth $400,,, :confused:

I was able to shoot the .38s with LPP converted brass yesterday, along with other .38s that were the same except for using SPPs. They worked fine and were indistinguishable from the ammo loaded with SPPs. So, as far as I'm concerned, this proof of concept was a success.

I did manage to source a couple thousand more SPPs which will arrive in a few days so I do not plan to convert any more .38 brass to take LPPs, but it's nice to know that if I need to, I can, and they will work fine.

Asked this question months ago and got the reply that everyone did that so I've been loading SR in lieu of SP for months now in .38 and .357 cases with normal results. These are average run of the mill shooting loads and are no way close to max. If I was running hot loads, I'd maybe be hesitant to do it but so far, so good./beagle

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Originally Posted by la5676

Ummmmm, what data are you gonna use for a large primer now used in place of the lighter small pistol primer. Are you gonna just back off 10% and hope it OK.

Why not just use small rifle primers. One of the bigger reloaders in our club told me recently he had inquired from "someone higher up" (who that is I don't know) but it's a straight across exchange. Then again, I've heard guys say they have had about half or more ftf with SR used in place if SP because of the harder cup material used.

I'll sit back now and learn something.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by beagle

Asked this question months ago and got the reply that everyone did that so I've been loading SR in lieu of SP for months now in .38 and .357 cases with normal results. These are average run of the mill shooting loads and are no way close to max. If I was running hot loads, I'd maybe be hesitant to do it but so far, so good./beagle

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CCI 400 550 primer spm sr
According to Speer/CCI Technical Services - Both the CCI 550 Small Pistol Magnum and CCI 400 Small Rifle primers are identical in size. Both primers use the same cup metal and share the same cup thickness. Both primers use the same primer compound formula and same amount of primer compound. They can be used interchangeably.

Attachment 273970

PRIMER CHART & REFERENCE GUIDE

Small Handgun Standard .017" cup thickness

CCI 500
Federal 100 - Has a soft cup - good to use if hammer strike is light.
Federal 100M - Match version of above
Magtech PR-SP
Magtech PR-SPC - Lead-free "Clean Range" primer for indoor ranges etc.
Remington 1 ½
RWS 4031
Winchester WSP
Wolf/Tula Small Pistol SP #KVB-9 - brass cup - "For Standard Pistol loads"
Wolf/Tula Small Pistol #KVB-9SP - "For 9×19 NATO cartridges"
Wolf/Tula Small Pistol #KVB-9S - "For Sporting Pistol loads"

Small Handgun Magnum .017" cup thickness

CCI 550 See Note 1 at the bottom of page
Federal 200
Federal 200M - Match version of above
Magtech PR-SPM
Remington 5 ½
RWS 4047
Winchester WSPM
Wolf/Tula Small Pistol Magnum SPM #KVB-9M - brass cup - "For Magnum Pistol loads"

Large Handgun Standard .020" cup thickness

CCI 300
Federal 150 - Has a thinner cup
Magtech PR-LP
Remington 2 ½
RWS 5337
Winchester WLP
Wolf/Tula Large Pistol LP #KVB-45 - brass cup - "For Standard Pistol loads"

Large Handgun Magnum .020" cup thickness

CCI 350
Federal 155
Wolf/Tula Large Pistol Magnum LPM #KVB-45M - brass cup - For Magnum Pistol loads

Small Rifle Standard

CCI 400 -thin .020" cup, not recommended for AR15 use by CCI/Speer. Good for .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine. See Note 1 at the bottom of the page
CCI BR4 - match primer with a thicker .025" cup.
Federal 205 - Mil-Spec cup thickness according to Federal - okay for 5.56mm. .0225" cup thickness.
Federal 205M - same as the 205 but the match version.
Magtech PR-SR - .025" cup thickness (not much feedback yet on this new primer as to AR15 suitability but with the same cup thickness as the Rem 7 1/2 it looks good so far)
Remington 6 ½ - thin .020" cup, intended for older, lower pressure rounds Remington says do not use for the .223 Rem or other similar pressure rounds. Good for .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine.
Remington 7 ½ BR - A match or "bench rest" primer. Lyman & Nosler classify this primer as a Standard. Remington says the compound is the same as the 6 1/2 but with a thicker .025" cup.
RWS 4033
Winchester WSR - some piercing issues noted when changed from silver to brass cup. Cup thickness is a bit thinner at .021". Most say they are good to go for the AR15 despite that, probably because of the hardness of the cup. Some feel they are less resistant to higher pressures.
Wolf/Tula Small Rifle SR #KVB-223 - soft, sensitive copper cup, not recommended for AR15/military rifle use or high pressure rounds.

Small Rifle Magnum

CCI 450 - same thicker .025" cup as the BR4 and #41.
CCI #41 - commercial version of the fully-qualified DOD primer for use in U.S. military ammo. With this primer there is more 'distance' between the tip of the anvil and the bottom of the cup than with other CCI SR primers. .025" thick cup. Same primer mix as CCI 450.
Remington 7 ½ BR - A match or "bench rest" primer. Hornady, Handloads.com, and Chuck Hawks classify this primer as a Magnum, differing from other sources that classify it as a Standard. .025" cup thickness.
Wolf/Tula Small Rifle Magnum SRM - hard, less sensitive brass cup intended for AR15/military rifle and high pressure rounds - #KVВ-5,56M.
Wolf/Tula Small Rifle 223 SR223 - #KVB-223M "This is the newest primer available in the Wolf line. It is ever so slightly hotter than the small rifle magnum primer and it comes with a brass colored thick cup. This primer can be used in place of the SRM primer or used when a different powder is used that is hard to ignite."

Large Rifle Standard

CCI 200 - mild in brisance. Hard enough for use in semi-automatics.
CCI BR2 - same as the 200 but the match version. Hard enough for use in semi-automatics.
Federal 210 - medium brisance between CCI/Remington & Winchester. Do not use in semi-automatics.
Federal 210M - match version of the above primer. Do not use in semi-automatics.
Magtech PR-LR
Remington 9 ½ - mild in brisance.
RWS 5341
Winchester WLR - the hottest standard primer. Hard enough for use in semi-automatics.
Wolf/Tula Large Rifle LR #KVB-7 - all brass - "For Standard Rifle loads".
Wolf/Tula Large Rifle #KVB-7,62 - "For 7,62 NATO cartridges"

Wolf/Tula primers are used by noted match shooter David Tubbs who says: "Be sure they are seated into the case - if not they can be hard to ignite. Russian primers use a different sinoxide compound (closer to the European type), which, in my testing, consistently delivers better extreme spreads over Federal..." Hard enough for use in semi-automatics.

Large Rifle Magnum

CCI 250
CCI #34 - commercial version of the fully-qualified DOD primer for use in U.S. military ammo.
Federal 215 - original magnum primer
Remington 9 ½ M - mildest magnum primer.
RWS 5333
Winchester WLRM
Wolf/Tula Large Rifle Magnum LRM #KVB-7M - all brass - "For Magnum Rifle loads".

50 BMG

CCI #35 - commercial version of the fully-qualified DOD primer for use in U.S. military ammo.
Winchester 8312
Wolf/Tula 50 Cal Machine Gun #KVB-50 - For 50 Browning Machine Gun

Primers recommended for use in .223 Rem/5.56 semiautomatic rifle loads:

CCI #41, 450, BR4 (#41 & 450 good with ball powder)
Federal 205, 205M
Remington 7 1/2 BR (good with ball powder)
Winchester WSR (good with ball powder)
Wolf SRM (good with ball powder)
Wolf SR223 (hotter than SRM - great with ball powder)

Primers recommended for use in .308 Win/7.62x51/7.62x39 semiautomatic rifle loads:

CCI #34, 200, BR2, CCI 250
Winchester WLR, WLRM (good with ball powder)
Wolf LR

WOLF/TULA PRIMER APPLICATION CHART FOR ALL PRIMERS - http://www.mpzflame.ru/production/primers/
Wolf and Tula are two of the common U.S. marketing names of primers made by Murom (OJSC «Murom Apparatus Producing plant» "For many years, our constant partners are «The Tula Cartridge Works», «Barnaul Cartridge Plant» and others.").

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NOTE 1: According to Speer/CCI Technical Services - Both the CCI 550 Small Pistol Magnum and CCI 400 Small Rifle primers are identical in size. Both primers use the same cup metal and share the same cup thickness. Both primers use the same primer compound formula and same amount of primer compound. They can be used interchangeably