Recipes for "Mouse Fart" Loads in 30-06

great info here Larry, thanks

I recently picked up a Lee TL314-085-DEWC, was looking for this exact info for my Brits, 30-30's and a couple other 30cal's

What OTHER powders besides BE, would you suggest for same performance/characteristics?

N310, 231, HP38, Titewad and WST.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

What are your thoughts on light charges of 700x?

The Lyman book lists it a lot in light rifle loads.

It works but when you get down to the real "cat's sneeze" or "mouse fart loads" we're discussing here some powders work in some cases and in others they don't. I use Bullseye because it works in everything. 700x is a bit slower than BE and requires a bit more psi to burn efficiently. I tested it many years ago and it worked well with heavier cast bullets in .30 cal because the psi was high enough while keeping the velocity low enough. However, it didn't work near as well as BE for the lighter 90 - 118 gr cast bullets if you want to keep them down in the 800 - 900 fps range.

Larry Gibson

With the lee boolit in my 8mm Mauser 5 gr of clays worked pretty good. I've worked down to 2 gr without sticking a boolit in the bore and you could hear the firing pin fall over the sound of the shot.

Another one I haven't used in a while so forgot to mention was 4.0 grs Unique but this was to push a 170gr Lee FPGC design (without the GC) out of a .30-06, which wasn't quite as quiet, but not near a standard rounds noise levels either. Probably about like a .22 short if that helps. But I quit using it because it penetrated MUCH more than anything I felt safe using for pest control in the garden and seemed to want to ricochet out of my gun. Now if I was having to tackle things bigger than my local garden pests, it would have potential, but most of mine are possums and smaller stuff, so I didn't really need that much power. The 90 gr .314 Lee pushed by 2.7grs Unique penetrates plenty and doesn't seem to want to ricochet like the 170gr pills or the .22.

Solo 1000 would be a good choice. I've used it in ultralight loads in various calibers, and chose it specifically because it burned so cleanly.

I got my mold earlier this week and cast the first boolits from it today. Made around 500 or so and sorted into "real good" and "good enough for play". Sized some of the good ones to .309, they are going to my bud tomorrow so he can play with them. He's been lurking, following this thread. Might make a boolit shooter out of him.

With these ultra light loads, do you use fillers? How position sensitive is the powder?

IMO you don't need fillers with fast pistol/ shotgun powders like BE ,red dot, clays or even unique. But for your really mouse fart loads I don't think you can use too fast a powder, just don't use too much!

I've burned enough Universal Clays and Unique in reduced loads and it doesn't seem to make any difference . My aught six loads rarely go past thirty-five yards though . Maybe past that it would make a difference but for my use I load a magazine full and practice rapid fire with them in an A3 . I'm going to try the Bullseye in a reduced load soon .

Jack

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Originally Posted by Larry Gibson

Jack

That load data was available 100+ years ago. Was loaded with a M1906 bullet and was known as a "Guard" load. If you read many of the old writers they used around 6 gr in the 30-30 under a 311291 or similar PB"d cast bullet or 6.5 - 7.5 gr in the '06 for use as a "foraging" or practice load. Whelen had a load he used in the M1903 with the 311008 loaded with a Ideal tong tool that was very similar.

As to a "rule of thumb" having shot lots of such in rifles over the years I've found that lighter weight pistol bullets most often shoot more accurately at 800 - 950 fps with such loads. Thus I use 2.7 gr Bullseye in cases from 7.62x39 to 300 Savage in capacity with 90 - 118 gr PB'd pistol bullets. I use 3.2 gr Bullseye in .308W to '06 capacity cases with the same bullets. Those 2 loads have always worked in any .30 or .31 cal rifle. In .35 call rifles I've found that 120 - 160 gr pistol bullets also are the most accurate in the 800 - 950 fps range. I use 4 - 6.5 gr with those in the .35 Rem, .358W and 35 Whelens. Case that show that speckled crack around the web expansion ring signaling incipient case head seperation that haven't actually seperated yet are great to use with these loads. There is no real psi and these cases get a new lease on life and last practically forever with these 2.7 - 3.2 gr Bullseye loads under a 90 gr SWC or even the HBWCs sold by Hornady and Speer.

With low end loads rifle cast bullets I've found they shoot very accurately if cast soft and PB'd or GC'd at 1050 - 1200 fps, most often right around 1150 fps. I use Bullsey with those also using 6 - 8 gr depending on what it takes to get into that velocity range. Above 1200 fps Unique most often works better.

I also use light weight PB'd cast bullets in the 8x57, the .375 H&H and the 45-70. I use 6.5 gr+ depending on what is also needed to get the bullets to 1050 - 1200 fps. I do use 4 gr Bullseye in the 375 H&H with a 375 RB lightly lubed with LLA for 900 fps and a very deadly small game load to 50-75 yards.

I also have used 200 gr .30 and 8mm very soft cast bullets loaded down to 300 fps with success although it takes about 500 fps to get to 50 yards with the ladder milsurp sights. Using 1.5 to 2.7 gr bullseye gets you to those low end "cat's sneeze" velocities. Bullets must be cast of pure lead or 40-1 or they may stick in the barrel. A ight coat of LLA is all that's need for lube. Also if a rimless case is used you might consider well fire formed cases with the flash holes drilled (#30 - 28) to avoid the shortening of the cases headspace.

Larry Gibson

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Larry I've heard of this but never have read or been told why ,can you explain in more detail why this happens. I'm sorry for sidetracking someones thread Tim:?: I'm talking about the shortning of the head space

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Originally Posted by marshall623

Larry I've heard of this but never have read or been told why ,can you explain in more detail why this happens. I'm sorry for sidetracking someones thread Tim:?: I'm talking about the shortning of the head space

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My guess is it is related to bullet length and twist.

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Originally Posted by marshall623

Larry I've heard of this but never have read or been told why ,can you explain in more detail why this happens. I'm sorry for sidetracking someones thread Tim:?: I'm talking about the shortning of the head space

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I shoot many thousands of squib/cat's sneeze loads in various calibers but mostly in .30s. Many of these are rimless cartridges; 30-06, .308, .308 CBC, 7.65, 7.62x39 etc. The squib loads I shoot most often is a Lee 314-90-SWC-TL over 2.7 to 3.2 gr of Bullseye depending on the cartridge. Velocity is around 800 – 875 fps. I found a long time ago the shoulders do in fact get set back with light loads such as those. With many cast loads that use normal weight bullets in the 1600 to 2000 fps range there was little setback. Measurements of shoulder set back or increase are easily taken with a Stoney Point tool. There have been basically the two theories regarding the cause; the firing pin blow theory and the primer theory. I ran the same tests with a fire formed case and inert primers; headspace was not changed. I then used the same fire formed case with live primers. In as little as two firings there was a measurable decrease in headspace. After five live primers the fired primer was noticeably backed out after firing. NOTE: this increase in headspace was with case taking LR primers. I never experience the problem with the .222 Rem or the 5.56 Nato.

Using #'d drills I gradually increased the flash hole diameter with a progressively larger drill. Using a different fire formed case with each larger drill and firing 5 primers I then measured the headspace before firing and after. As the size of the flash hole increased the headspace decrease lessoned. With a # 29 drill I no longer got any decrease in headspace. I dedicated five .308 cases and five 30-06 cases that were well fire formed to their respective rifles chambers and drilled the flash holes with the #29 drill. Over the next few days I fired 50 shots with each case. There was an indoor 50” range where I was stationed so it wasn’t all that bad. After the 50 firings there was negligible change in headspace with any of the five cases of each cartridge. The results of my test firmly demonstrated to me that it was the force of the primer explosion that drove the case forward and set back the shoulder. The squib load does not have the pressure to expand the case out to fit the chamber. By drilling out the flash hole the force of the explosion mostly went directly into the case as there is little rim left to contain it. Two other side benefits that were unforeseen; the extreme spread and standard deviations of the velocity readings improved and the case position sensitivity of the small charge was greatly reduced.

As a result of the above tests I dedicated fire formed cases for squib loads for each rifle in rimless cases and drill out the flash holes. I have fired them many, many times now with no further change in headspace. Besides the squib load mentioned I also use 311631 (# may be wrong but it’s the 118 gr GC 32-20 bullet) with Unique in the above cartridges loaded to 1400 fps or so for a little more powerful small game load. The flash hole drilled cases work just fine for those. I now use the flash ole drilled cases for all my rimless cartridges with squib and really light loads.

Undrilled cases fired in CF rifles will onlyhave the headspace shortened until the extracor holds the case back. Normally the firing pin protrusion is enough with CF rifles that misfires do not occur. With PF rifles it is a different story, these are where the most problems with misfires occur because the ejector also pushes the case forward. Soon the headspace of the case is such the firing pin does not hit the primer enough to fire it and/or the case is pushed far enough forward the extractor doesn't slip over the rim and extraction is then with a cleaning rod.

Of course with Rimmed cases the shoulder sets back only as far as rim headspace allows. I will many times use rimmed cases with drilled flash holes any way because the larger flash hole lets the flash into the case much quicker for more positive ignition.

Caveat; I still use normal sized flash hole cases for loads with medium to heavy (for caliber) cast bullets with velocities from 1800 fps and up.

Larry Gibson

Larry, have you tried the 311410 & B'eye in a Krag ? Like to find a gallery load for my hiwall. Poyer's book does list some, but with powders that hav'nt been around for a loooong time. :popcorn:

I vote for a "Sticky" for this thread....


too much info to get lost in the shuffle....

thanks. Larry. I"m gonna cut and paste this, and keep it handy, as these rounds are a great idea!

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Originally Posted by 6.5 mike

Larry, have you tried the 311410 & B'eye in a Krag ? Like to find a gallery load for my hiwall. Poyer's book does list some, but with powders that hav'nt been around for a loooong time. :popcorn:

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Not in the 30-40 Krag but I have in the '06 in M1903s. Suggest starting at 3.5 gr and work up to 5 gr in .2 gr increments. Accuracy will probably be best in the 750 - 900 fps range. That's just a guess based on my experience/loading notes long ago with the 311410.

Larry Gibson

Thanks Larry, I'll get a can of B'seye & give it a try. May have to try it in the 03A3 also. :popcorn:

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Originally Posted by Larry Gibson

Bullseye will work better than unique. With Unique many time you have to get the bullet at to high a velocity for it to ignite and burn efficiently. Bullseye ignites well and burns efficiently at a much lower psi.

Larry Gibson

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I loaded some light loads for 30-06 with small charges of Unique under a 170 gr plain base boolit for plinking. They worked okay in the summer when I rolled them up. Later, in the PA winter when temperatures were considerably lower, I consistently had boolits stuck in the bore, and an action full of unburned powder. Then I tried using a polyester filler over the powder, and that seemed to cure the problem. I am still not completely sold on Unique for very light loads. It seems like powders in the Red Dot/Green Dot range work a lot better for that purpose. I would probably still use the filler, though.

Wayne

I will second the motion for sticky of this thread . I heard of drilling cases for very light loads in the past but never though I'd need to do that . Now that I have an idea of how much Bullseye to use I may need to get with the program .

I've been using Unique for low velocity round in the aught six for a long time now . The ammo never got chronographed but I think it is about twelve hundred . Bullets used have been 311466 , 311291 and 311334 with charge weights 7.5 to 11.2 , the lighter bullets I've run without gas check , the 311334 I haven't tried without the check just yet . For what it's worth I don't use fillers of any kind with the groups remaning very good down to below freezing .

Yesterday I was working with Bullseye in the three oh three British case . Bullet was 311291 sized at .314" with one groove filled with Alox no gas check and charges went from six to seven grains . Six point two grains showed the most promise with an over all length of 2.755" if I remember right . Now , the job will be to see if it will feed from the magazine of the Enfields , I tried one and it didn't so there is fine tuning to do yet . If the rifle is left being a single shot with these short bullets then I may have to use the RCBS 32-98-SWC .

This oughta be fun .

Jack