"They Should Never Be Reloaded".....44-40 HV Factory Warning!

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11-17-2020, 09:43 PM
Savvy Jack

"They Should Never Be Reloaded".....44-40 HV Factory Warning!

EDITED:
I guess I wasn't clear on my meaning.

I use these all the time for Black Powder loads with no issues. I would load smokeless in them but never needed too.

My purpose for the topic was for High Velocity loads. On the boxes of these HV loads, it said not to reload them. I always wondered why other than maybe the balloonhead pocket being too weak for the 22,000psi loads.

I was actually waiting for someone to come along and say they used such cases for the 44 Magnum. However, I think sold head cases came out late 1940's early 1950's and the 44 Mag came out in 55"?

On the side label of the early Winchester 44-40 HV loads (and maybe others), you may have notice this warning to never reload these cases. I always assumed the reason was due to the weak semi-balloonhead cases that were still being used at that time. I have shot many of these using only black powder loads, never with an issue....until now!

I finally found/encountered a blown semi-balloonhead primer pocket. For this exact reason, I always do a good inspection before using...again, only with black powder for obvious reasons.

ALTHOUGH these are Western cases, the same logic applies....

Note the primer pocket sinks in on the right side, preventing from being able to clean the primer pocket. This was a dead giveaway!!! Other photos shows the crack at the bottom of the pocket.

Attachment 271622

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Attachment 271625
11-17-2020, 10:52 PM
Eddie Southgate

Never had any issues using the Balloon Head or Semi Balloon Head cases I have owned over the years . Still have a fair number in .45 Colt . I Doubt that is the reason for that statement as you could buy the very same cases from them to reload .
11-17-2020, 11:35 PM
Outpost75

I relegate once-fired balloon-head cases for shot loads only and they work OK for several reloads for that purpose as long as the charges are kept light, about 5 grains of Bullseye or 6 grains of 231, WST or 452AA.

Attachment 271637 Attachment 271638
11-18-2020, 08:11 AM
Savvy Jack

I guess I wasn't clear on my meaning.

I use these all the time for Black Powder loads with no issues, except that one. I would load smokeless in them but never needed too.

My purpose for the topic was for High Velocity loads. On the boxes of these HV loads, it said not to reload them. I always wondered why other than maybe the balloonhead pocket being too weak for the 22,000psi loads.

I was actually waiting for someone to come along and say they used such cases for the 44 Magnum. However, I think sold head cases came out late 1940's early 1950's and the 44 Mag came out in 55"?
11-18-2020, 12:41 PM
Savvy Jack

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outpost75

I relegate once-fired balloon-head cases for shot loads only and they work OK for several reloads for that purpose as long as the charges are kept light, about 5 grains of Bullseye or 6 grains of 231, WST or 452AA.

Attachment 271637 Attachment 271638

Pretty impressive pattern there!!!
11-18-2020, 01:19 PM
Outpost75

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savvy Jack

Pretty impressive pattern there!!!

The back yard bunnies think so. I recycle .38-40 brass into .44-40 shotloads also.

A .390 ball crimped into the mouth makes a very sturdy cartridge which feeds in lever-action rifles.
Produces even "skeet" patterns in a .410 cylinder bore. Using a .410 shot cup inside 5 in 1 blank case shoots tight .410 patterns even in a cylinder bore!

Attachment 271665 Attachment 271666 Attachment 271667 Attachment 271668 Attachment 271669
11-18-2020, 02:20 PM
jrmartin1964

The "do not reload" notice on the early HV loads was related to the mercuric primers in use at the time. With Black Powder loads, the effect of mercury was mitigated by the fouling, but with the advent of Smokeless powder (and the virtual elimination of the heavy fouling) the mercury in the primers was free to wreak its havoc on the brass casing, causing it to become brittle and therefore unsuitable for reloading. Most, if not all, early Winchester smokeless loads (and those of other manufacturers) carried the " do not reload" warning, until the early mercuric primers were discontinued and replaced with the non-mercuric type.

Jim
11-18-2020, 02:39 PM
Savvy Jack

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrmartin1964

The "do not reload" notice on the early HV loads was related to the mercuric primers in use at the time. With Black Powder loads, the effect of mercury was mitigated by the fouling, but with the advent of Smokeless powder (and the virtual elimination of the heavy fouling) the mercury in the primers was free to wreak its havoc on the brass casing, causing it to become brittle and therefore unsuitable for reloading. Most, if not all, early Winchester smokeless loads (and those of other manufacturers) carried the " do not reload" warning, until the early mercuric primers were discontinued and replaced with the non-mercuric type.

Jim

I'm not seeing it but I will take a closer look when I get home. Great information!!!
11-18-2020, 07:06 PM
Savvy Jack

Here is Winchester's first 44-40 smokeless powder offering in 1895. There is no mention of not reloading or not for pistols. Not For Pistols was added later.
Attachment 271698

Here is Winchester's 1900 to 1903 smokeless offering. The Not For Pistols is evident but still nothing about not reloading.
Attachment 271692

Here is Winchester's 1909 44-40 High Velocity offering. Not for reloding is noted.
Attachment 271695

Here is Winchester's 1909 offering, the Not For Pistols has been removed.
Attachment 271693

Here is a 1914 box, no mention of do not reload.
Attachment 271694

Here is a "1920" Full Patch offering, no indication of not for reloding.
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Here is a "1920" Soft Point offering, no indication of not for reloding.
Attachment 271697

Here is the 1932-1938 Non-Mercuric JSP offering, no sign of not reloding. It would appear, however, that there was concern with the barrel bore, rather than the brass with the old primers.
Attachment 271699

Attachment 271700

This must be published in catalogs somewhere. Any idea where the info is located?
11-18-2020, 11:01 PM
jrmartin1964

In Giles & Shuey's "One Hundred Years of Winchester Cartridge Boxes, 1856-1956":

Page 113 - .22 W.C.F. Smokeless side label c.1908;
Page 129 - .38-56 W.C.F. Smokeless label c.1898-1900;
Page 133 - .40-65 W.C.F. Smokeless label c.1898-1900;
Page 142 - .45-70 Smokeless label c.1899-1901;
Page 143 - .45-70 Smokeless label dated 12/6;
Page 146 - .45-70-330 Smokeless label c.1898-1901;
Page 168 - .25-35 Winchester label c.1898-1900; c.1903-1905;
Page 171 - .25-35 Winchester label c.1898-1900;
Page 171 - .25-35 Winchester Short Range label c.1915-1919;
Page 173 - .30 Winchester label c.1898;
Page 174 - .30 Winchester label c.1902; c.1902-1903;
Page 175 - .30 Winchester label c.1903; c.1906;
Page 184 - .32 Winchester Special label c.1902; c.1902-1903;
Page 185 - .32 Winchester Special label c.1903-1904;
Page 196 - .38-55 Smokeless label c.1903-1905;
Page 197 - .38-55 Smokeless label dated 10/6;
Page 203 - .30 Government, Model 1903, label c.1905 (all three labels on this page);
Page 204 - .30 Government, Model 1903, label dated 11/6;
Page 210 - .30 U. S. Army label c.1898-1900; c.1904-1906;
Page 214 - .303 British label c.1907;
Page 221 - .40-72-300 Smokeless label c.1899;
Page 223 - .405 W.C.F. label c.1904-1905 (two on this page);
Page 230 - 6mm U. S. Navy label c.1898-1900; c.1900-1902;
Page 231 - 6mm U. S. Navy label dated 4/10; dated 11/15;
Page 274 - 7mm Spanish Mauser label c.1901-1902

All of these labels (and many others) carry warnings that the casings should not be reloaded, and in most instances the warning disappears in the vicinity of 1906 (the notable exception being the 6mm Navy)... coincidentally, the same year in which Winchester began loading smokeless powder cartridges with primers which did not contain fulminate of mercury.

Jim
11-19-2020, 08:54 AM
Savvy Jack

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrmartin1964

In Giles & Shuey's "One Hundred Years of Winchester Cartridge Boxes, 1856-1956":

Page 113 - .22 W.C.F. Smokeless side label c.1908;
Page 129 - .38-56 W.C.F. Smokeless label c.1898-1900;
Page 133 - .40-65 W.C.F. Smokeless label c.1898-1900;
Page 142 - .45-70 Smokeless label c.1899-1901;
Page 143 - .45-70 Smokeless label dated 12/6;
Page 146 - .45-70-330 Smokeless label c.1898-1901;
Page 168 - .25-35 Winchester label c.1898-1900; c.1903-1905;
Page 171 - .25-35 Winchester label c.1898-1900;
Page 171 - .25-35 Winchester Short Range label c.1915-1919;
Page 173 - .30 Winchester label c.1898;
Page 174 - .30 Winchester label c.1902; c.1902-1903;
Page 175 - .30 Winchester label c.1903; c.1906;
Page 184 - .32 Winchester Special label c.1902; c.1902-1903;
Page 185 - .32 Winchester Special label c.1903-1904;
Page 196 - .38-55 Smokeless label c.1903-1905;
Page 197 - .38-55 Smokeless label dated 10/6;
Page 203 - .30 Government, Model 1903, label c.1905 (all three labels on this page);
Page 204 - .30 Government, Model 1903, label dated 11/6;
Page 210 - .30 U. S. Army label c.1898-1900; c.1904-1906;
Page 214 - .303 British label c.1907;
Page 221 - .40-72-300 Smokeless label c.1899;
Page 223 - .405 W.C.F. label c.1904-1905 (two on this page);
Page 230 - 6mm U. S. Navy label c.1898-1900; c.1900-1902;
Page 231 - 6mm U. S. Navy label dated 4/10; dated 11/15;
Page 274 - 7mm Spanish Mauser label c.1901-1902

All of these labels (and many others) carry warnings that the casings should not be reloaded, and in most instances the warning disappears in the vicinity of 1906 (the notable exception being the 6mm Navy)... coincidentally, the same year in which Winchester began loading smokeless powder cartridges with primers which did not contain fulminate of mercury.

Jim

I will check those out, thanks...however, notice the 44-40 is not one of them.