can you use 4F .....(FFFFG) black powder in a 45 colt?

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Originally Posted by John Boy

Let's start from the beginning: all final grades of black powder come out of the same mill formulation > then to the press cake > then broken up > then through the sieves for specific grading based on the the size of the screens > then polished!
Therefore, A FFFFg is the same powder as a Fg - FFg - FFFg. The only difference is that FFFFg will have a faster burn rate due to the smaller grain size with a immaterial increase in fps than the burn rate of the other grades of powder
So don't sweat the small stuff about pressure because BP is not nitroglycerine based powder like smokeless powders with an increase of powder charge = greater pressure curve. Black powder is a weak powder!

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Black powder is a weak powder ? .......hmmm - under normal circumstances - yeah...............
This ole cowboy blew the nipple out of a 3/4 inch wall post hole gun with a half charge of powder - just shredded the metal and tore the nipple right out - lord knows how far up it went but it landed on the tin roof of my machinery shed about twenty seconds after it went off - plink!- tinkle tinkle - plop - rolled right off the roof and dropped on the dirt not twenty feet from the liftoff position - couldnt repeat the whole thing in a million years - ok where wuz I ? Yeah weak blackpowder ? If you give it somewhere to get out - yeah its weak - but lock it up tight enough - barrel obstruction - whatever - it will still get out - so my prediction here is - pour a hundred grains of black down a caplock barrel - plug the barrel solid (I mean solid - no escape route at all) touch it off (from behind the nearest tree) and you will blow the nipple clear out of that gun - probably the nipple drum too - and if all that is really well built you probably split the barrel - blackpowder under the right (or wrong) circumstances is well capable of generating over 100,000psi. Never assume that you cant come to grief with blackpowder!

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Originally Posted by kens

What gun?
black powder is very forgiving on pressures ( as compared to smokeless)
I have have shot some of the metallic calibers with a full case of FFFFg to no ill effect.
I respectfully disagree with all the naysayers here....that is, if it is a solid firearm in good, shootable condition.
To those who say that .45LC was originally loaded for FFg, I say,,,,,prove it.
FFg is for large caliber rifles and shotguns, not pistol.
Pistols were loaded with FFFg, and if it is good solid arm, it will take FFFFg.
Gee Whiz guys, we're not talking about a full case of Bullseye here, it is holy black.
the post by jcren is total incorrect. I'm sorry to be that way, but it is what it is.

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friend of mine runs FFFF in a 357 magnum case through a colt lightning repro - a nice solid load no problems - 26 grains I think . 158 grain LEE boolit on top

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Originally Posted by oldred

Not saying one way or the other about whether it's safe or not because my opinion is just that, an opinion, but years ago I shot 4F in a Ruger Old Army (a lot of it!) because the dealer said it was made for it and I didn't know any better at the time.
Again I am NOT saying it is safe but I saw no problems at all with it.

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Good morning oldred,

The dealer may have been telling customers that because of the following, page 10 of the Ruger Old Army instructions.

The “Old Army” is a muzzle loading, percussion revolver intended solely for use
with Black Powder. It should never, under any circumstances, be loaded with any
type of smokeless powder as the result could be damage to the revolver and
injury to the shooter or bystanders. Black Powder is usually classified by powder
grain size, with “Fg” being the largest granulation and “FFFFg” being the
smallest granulation normally available. Any granulation within these gradations
could be used in the “Old Army”; normally, however, “FFFg” is the preferred
grain size. Replica black powder such as Pyrodex may be used, so long as
suggested loading data is strictly adhered to.

I think you were on very safe ground with the Ruger and a round ball. HOWEVER, some other revolver or some cartridge revolver, who knows?
I read "any granulation within these gradations" to include 4F to be in any amount that can be loaded under the round ball.

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...blackpowder under the right (or wrong) circumstances is well capable of generating over 100,000psi.

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Joe - Statements like this deserve a reference source! Post the reference source or retract your post

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Hi John: Pedersoli approves 29.000 psi loadings with BP or
smokeless powders.

This is correct and official for our Sharps, Trapdoor and Rolling
Block models.

All these guns are proof tested at about 33,000 to 35,000 psi using
American Federal brand smokeless ammo , at the Italian national Proof
House in Gardone Italy.

Properly loaded with correct garde BP you will not exceed allowed
safe limits but under certain conditions FFFg powder has been known
to exceed the limits a bit.

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indian joe - your last activity on the forum was:
Last Activity - Today 03:49 PM and am sure you looked at this thread after my post to you at 02:29 PM

You have to understand, there are more uneducated readers than you that unfortunately may believe your psi value is valid. which it isn't
So ... Post the reference source or retract your post!

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Originally Posted by John Boy

indian joe - your last activity on the forum was:
Last Activity - Today 03:49 PM and am sure you looked at this thread after my post to you at 02:29 PM

You have to understand, there are more uneducated readers than you that unfortunately may believe your psi value is valid. which it isn't
So ... Post the reference source or retract your post!

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did you read my post ? I talked about a plugged barrel - I took my splintered post hole gun to an engineer I knew (out of curiosity because I was struggling to believe what I was loooking at) asked his opinion - which he gave as "in excess of 100k psi would be needed to do that" - I dont have a picture of it - and I didnt get a letter of certification off him - do you seriously believe its possible to splinter a sound barrel with pressure in the 40000psi range ? - black powder has splintered more than one barrel - when there is an obstruction! we not talking about normal loads here at all .

Been there done that it fouls out in 3 shots and shows flattening of the primers. this is why the british had to use a special Metford rifling in the 303 with BP loads. By the way they got 1800 fps from a 215 grain bullet with black powder with an estimate of 30,000 PSI. The 45 acp case won't hold a decent load of black, the colt case holds enough to exceed the 16,ooo it was designed for.

indian joe ... 19th Century British experimenters conducted tests with black powder and recorded pressures in excess of 100,000 psi. Results verified by the navy. In a closed bomb which a firearm is not!
For your blasting post hole digger, recommended charge is 3/4 of an ounce = 328 grains (about a shot glass of powder)
And again, the digger is a closed bomb device - not a firearm. Further, the topic of the thread is FFFFg powder in a 45 Colt that if the case was an old balloon head case, could only hold 40grs of powder!

OK, 1st of all in a revolver or long arm to create these 100K pressures, one would have to pour and pack the barrel, then plug the barrel and pull the trigger with a 20 foot rope
So respective to firearms and the 100K pressure ... it's within the definition of Apples & Oranges
Thanks for posting you talked to an engineer about your post hole digger about the pressure

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Originally Posted by John Boy

indian joe ... 19th Century British experimenters conducted tests with black powder and recorded pressures in excess of 100,000 psi. Results verified by the navy. In a closed bomb which a firearm is not!
For your blasting post hole digger, recommended charge is 3/4 of an ounce = 328 grains (about a shot glass of powder)
And again, the digger is a closed bomb device - not a firearm. Further, the topic of the thread is FFFFg powder in a 45 Colt that if the case was an old balloon head case, could only hold 40grs of powder!

OK, 1st of all in a revolver or long arm to create these 100K pressures, one would have to pour and pack the barrel, then plug the barrel and pull the trigger with a 20 foot rope
So respective to firearms and the 100K pressure ... it's within the definition of Apples & Oranges
Thanks for posting you talked to an engineer about your post hole digger about the pressure

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I read where the U.S. Navy did test and got BP well over 200,000 psi!

In WWII, The smallest bomb used by U.S. aircraft was a 100-pound practice bomb with a 5-pound (35,000 grain) charge of black powder; yep, I'll buy well over 200,000 psi

I have a Uberti made SAA and loaded up some 40gr 4f just for fun. It didn't bother the revolver at all but I have to admit that was the snappiest recoil I've ever felt from that gun. I shoot smokeless as well and load max loads generally but I've never had recoil like that 4f load from any of them. It was great fun but I don't think I'd make a habit of it.

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Originally Posted by swheeler

3F is the third trace down. I have a pound of Goex 4f that will last me a lifetime as pan powder, maybe two as last time out I used 3f in barrel and pan.

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good info ....BUT ....I think woulda been a lot better if they
1) loaded same amount of black for each grade - instead they increased the grains as the grade gets hotter (60 Fg, 62FFg, 65 FFFg) -- why do that unless to twitch the result
2) loaded the smokeless with the same boolit - instead we get a 500grain over the black and a 410 over the smokless -- again why ? unless to skew the result in favour of the somkeless?
Its helpful but doesnt cut it as scientific data

I use 4F in a Uberti SA in 38-40 WCF, has a snappy recoil (like bsa7X57 said also).i have loaded some for my Uberti 1873 rifle in same caliber, have not shot them yet. I started using 4F because could not find any 3F at the time, consider that a lucky break for me. JMHO

Rafe

Decided to give pressure testing some 4f loads in the 45 Colt......checked several LGSs today.....no BP of any f available........:cry:

I'll keep looking.......

Larry,
I am looking forward to some real pressure data on BP.
It would be really cool to see the pressures of 2f, 3f, and 4f, in real data.
I have read that BP can run up some certain pressure, then just top out no matter if you load more powder.
But how does one really know?
Thanks

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Originally Posted by vzerone

Longbow this link will help a little. Unforturnately they didn't test FFFFG.

http://www.texas-mac.com/Black_Powde...bturation.html

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Good morning
If you look closely at the info in the link the smokeless load used a lighter bullet... That to me does little to validate the findings. But the link does show a good comparison for the different BP's.
Also it should be considered "what powder brand" are we looking at. Goex 3F is not equal to Swiss 3F. Far as I am concerned Goex 3F is needed to produce near equal velocities with 120 year old velocities determined back then with the pendulum research. Once again other brands of better BP get to the same velocities using the same grades.
So would I use 4F in a muzzle loader... I find Goex 3F to be the fastest I would use. Burns clean and near matches the "listed loads" of 150 years ago from pendulum tests. Good enough for me.

Mike in Peru

Not mentioned in any of the posts is - fouling in the bore using FFFFg powder in a 45 Colt.
This powder granulation will produce a hard foul in the bore - the bigger the caliber the more the foul and hard

Does anyone have any thoughts about using FFFg powder in a Smith & Wesson Schofield (.45) revolver made in 1876? I normally charge the cartridges with 28 grains (by volume) FFg powder. If using BP substitutes, I reduce the load a bit and use the FFg (Pyrodex RS, Triple 777 FFg). However, I have some extra FFFg black powder (and corresponding substitutes) bought for a different pistol, which I no longer load for. Would it be safe for the old gun to use the FFFg powders? Does one reduce the load? If the load is reduced too much, so that the powder is no longer compressed, won't that lead to possible dangerous pressure build-up? Any answers or suggestions would be most welcome.

remember that T-7- TRIPPLE -T is 15 % more powerful per grains than real BP, so be careful when loading!

sorry I meant TRIPPLE -7 not TRIPPLE-T. my bad!