Starting bullets in the sizer straight

So, I have a nose punch and that helps the nose, but there's nothing to help the base. I can eyeball it best I can, or go by feel with the base on the ram (and push the ram higher than I want to for every cycle) but I want a better way.

Is there a good way to ensure every bullet is perfectly lined up with the ram and nose punch on a lyman 45?

I can see every bullet that is not lined up, the ogive to bearing surface transition is not in the same place around the bullet circumference. (ie the bearing surface band between the to lube groove and ogive is thicker on one side and thinner on the other side of the bullet) I'm sure it'll be fine to 15 yards, but it'll start to affect accuracy past 25, 100, and beyond. Need "more perfect" bullets.

My dies have a a small bevel so as long as the base is flat it doesn't take much to align them straight. It could be that you need more practice rather than more complication.

Your post:I can see every bullet that is not lined up, the ogive to bearing surface transition is not in the same place around the bullet circumference. (ie the bearing surface band between the to lube groove and ogive is thicker on one side and thinner on the other side of the bullet) I'm sure it'll be fine to 15 yards, but it'll start to affect accuracy past 25, 100, and beyond. Need "more perfect" bullets.

Have you determined that this is not repeated on each side because the casting is out of round. If the raw casting is not round then this can happen. Show us what the problem is by holding the bullet with the parting line at 12 and 6 and take a measurement at 11-5, 7-1 and 9-3. Then compare. If the measurements are all the same, you have a round bullet. If 11-5 and 7-1 do not agree then it is the BLOCKS that are not aligned.

Picture ??

A lyman 45 is a very good tool, but subject to wear. Perhaps it is the sizer and not the die?
Dusty

The only way to get fairly straight alignment is to use a nose first sizing rig and then come back and lubricate in a separate step. Even then, there are mechanical tolerances that prevent perfect alignment.

On most base first rigs we depend on a decent bevel on the entrance to the sizer die for centering. On the 45s, the die is locked in with a set screw. That's the first induced error. Small but there. The die will be to one side a few thou. Then the top punch is also held in with a set screw and the punch shank may be a loose fit. Second induced error. Then the alignment with the top punch and the die caused by a moving tolerance of the sizer head is the third induced tolerance. Then, if you're sizing in a cold shop, the nose of the bullet can bend when you size or seat a gas check. This is noticeable on .25 and smaller bullets but exists even on some long .30s.

Answer to your question. You can't get perfect alignment with the existing equipment we have that is mass produced.

Get a sizing die that has a good bevel on the entrance, size in a warm room and don't linger too much on the remainder. Just do the best you can and they'll shoot for you if other variables are correct./beagle

I noticed it was happening with my brand new RCBS with RCBS sizing die. I was disappointed so before I decided to send it back I ordered used Lyman sizing die from ebay and it pretty much eliminated problem (RCBS die had better lube flow) or so I thought. The problem resurfaced with 22 cal die and it became very clear when i made flat top punch for variety of 358 bullets the top punch would hit the die at 12 o'clock and straighten by the bevel of the die. And became clear to me I need to exchange my lubrisizer with RCBS, it's not lined up properly!

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

Let me throw out a few tips I've learned with my Lyman 450 that might help.

Install the nose punch by not using the set screw, put a small bit of soft bullet lube or beeswax on the end and shove it up into the hole...it will stay in place, but can self align itself with the sizing die opening.

Use a flat punch. any and all boolits with a flat spot , WC, SWC, RF, FP , TC can be seated with the flat punch. It allows the boolit to self align with the sizer opening. Truth be known even RN boolits can be seated with the flat punch...I do it all the time.

Practice. I make sure the boolit base goes in the sizing die recess first and is centered and stands up straight , mine has a tapered opening, when the boolit base is in the recess , I lower the nose punch onto the boolit nose and feel with my thumb and index fingers to make sure it's centered. Now the base is in the recess and the nose is centered on the nose punch , if slightly out of alignment the flat punch and flat boolit nose can slide and align. Lower the handle untill the boolit hits the stop , pull on the lube feed and then eject the sized and lubricated boolit.

That's hard to explain...but since I've started using flat punches, flat nosed boolits and stopped using the set screw on the nose punch I no longer have messed up boolits due to out of kilter sizing ...I know all this sounds weird but this works much better than anything else I've tried. I can't remember the last time I've damaged a boolit during sizing .....it even works with round nose boolits.
My sizing dies are all Lyman, new and old, all have enough of a recess to hold a gas check. Putting the boolit base into the recess is no problem.
Gary

^ +1

I'm another that just uses flat punches. works for everything including RN

For my 358-125 RF, if I use the Lyman 450 to size and lube, even with a floating top punch, I get the same off-center sizing regardless of care taken. So I size nose first through a Lee push-thru die and then lube in the Lyman. No problem this way. An extra step but eliminates the problem.

Thank you LongPoint, I never tried that on my many Luber/Sizers. My most frustrating moment is when everything is going along fine and then you get a glob of lube under the bullet and then have to stop and tweak the process. I am thinking that there is a air space that gets compresses and expels extra lube. This was happening with a 9mm bullet with a wide grease groove and needed a lot of lube to fill completely.
Perhaps part of the fix is suggestions above.
Leadmelter
MI

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Originally Posted by Whiterabbit

So, I have a nose punch and that helps the nose, but there's nothing to help the base. I can eyeball it best I can, or go by feel with the base on the ram (and push the ram higher than I want to for every cycle) but I want a better way.

Is there a good way to ensure every bullet is perfectly lined up with the ram and nose punch on a lyman 45?

I can see every bullet that is not lined up, the ogive to bearing surface transition is not in the same place around the bullet circumference. (ie the bearing surface band between the to lube groove and ogive is thicker on one side and thinner on the other side of the bullet) I'm sure it'll be fine to 15 yards, but it'll start to affect accuracy past 25, 100, and beyond. Need "more perfect" bullets.

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From your description, I'd say the "knock-out punch" (part #J) is upside down.
The head of the knock-out punch should contact the base of the die which will NOT allow the punch (part#I) to be lifted above the top of the die...actually it will be about 1/8" below the top of the die, to allow starting the boolit as straight as the alignment will allow.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Lyman-45/page2

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Originally Posted by Leadmelter

I am thinking that there is a air space that gets compresses and expels extra lube.

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Melting lube and pouring it in eliminates air pockets.

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Originally Posted by LongPoint

Not sure about the Lyman lubesizer, never used one. On the RCBS units, there is an adjustment on how much the ejector pin in the die is raised when the handle is in the up position. If set too high there is a lot of clearance between the side of the bullet and the taper in the die allowing the bullet base to be positioned all over creation. There are 2 hex nuts under the little flat bar that pushes the ejector pin up as the handle is raised. Lower those 2 nuts a little at a time to decrease the amount of return height on the ejector pin until the wiggle room is gone. That will center the bullet base in the die before you start to size. If you raise the adjustment too much the bullet will not sit on the ejector pin and will want to lean to one side. If the top punch is not pushing the bullet into the die straight a flat faced punch is probably your best bet.

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This ^^^^ is what works.

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Originally Posted by Mal Paso

Melting lube and pouring it in eliminates air pockets.

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Not always in the Star sizers but it lessens the probability. Never been a problem in the Lyman 45/450/4500 series.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leadmelter

Thank you LongPoint, I never tried that on my many Luber/Sizers. My most frustrating moment is when everything is going along fine and then you get a glob of lube under the bullet and then have to stop and tweak the process. I am thinking that there is a air space that gets compresses and expels extra lube. This was happening with a 9mm bullet with a wide grease groove and needed a lot of lube to fill completely.
Perhaps part of the fix is suggestions above.
Leadmelter
MI

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If you mean a gap under the boolit, that happens. I pretty much eliminated it when I concentrated on keeping pressure on the boolit when I added pressure on the lube. Releasing pressure on the boolit while maintaining pressure on the lube pretty much always added lube under the boolit.

Nose first sizing is most accurate but on your machine you can not lube like that, I use STAR lubers that size nose first and lube at the same time.

Most of my sizing is with a Star so that takes care of the issues mentioned above. I've found that a case that's not flared quite enough causes boolits to try to enter the case crooked. Just a little more flare lets them square up much more easily. Costs nothing to try.

I have a lam II and a 4500 and agree with everything that gwpercle says. Just float the top punch with some lube.

I had to return my first 4500, top and bottom were not even remotely in line.

Not to pull this thread off course, but how are you guys accurately sizing base first with a flat punch? I've wasted days, and hundreds of bullets trying it in my Lyman 450. I never did get it to work. Way too many got sized crooked, and you could see plain as day that one side was "sized" nearly smooth, while the other was untouched. I must be missing something, but there is no floating going on. The bullet does not float on the top punch, even with lube, and the top punch itself certainly doesn't float. I've since gone back to fitted top punches, either purchased, or formed with epoxy. I only cast flat faced bullets, although I can only imagine a round nose being worse. I must have got lucky with a machine in nearly perfect alignment. I'm not certain why the base wouldn't be lined up well. The Lyman dies have a decent chamfer, plus you start the bullet a good 1/4" of the way though by hand anyway. If it's not sizing straight, I would have to blame the top end, not the bottom.

Megasupermagnum,
Lubricate the flat punch face very slightly. This will help the boolit slide into alignment, assuming it is started very close to vertical.

I have a couple Lyman 45's and managed to cure their mis-alignment with a couple easy steps. The main thing is to put the sizing die and top punch in oriented same way each time. Witness marks on each, lined up with witness marks on the frame of the sizer takes care of that. I use center punch marks. Then I remove the ejector punch from the die and start an oiled bullet in, nose first. I push it in the whole way with a flat punch. Then take the die and bullet out of the sizer and finish pushing the bullet out the bottom of the die with a steel punch or wooden dowel. The bullet should be sized evenly all around. Then turn the oiled bullet around and push it back through the die, from the bottom, until the nose protrudes from the top of the die. Replace the bullet and die in the sizer, taking care to line up the witness marks, and coat the bullet nose with wax or grease lightly. Then take a top punch that has the cavity drilled out larger than the bullets nose. Fill the cavity with epoxy, glass bedding, JB weld etc. and then insert the top punch in the sizer, lining up the previously applied witness marks. Lightly press down over the waxed or lubed bullet and let the epoxy harden. When hardened, separate the bullet form the epoxy, clean up any excess epoxy from the top punch and you are done. That top punch and sizing die are matched to each other, for that particular bullet, in that particular sizer, as long as you line up the witness marks on each with the witness marks on the sizer each time you install them. You will have to repeat the process with each different bullet style you use.
Take note, my two Lyman 45's do not have the same amount of mis-alignment, I can't switch dies and top punches between them and still have good bullet alignment. I have to keep separate dies and top punches for each. I don't know if this applies to all other 45's, or just the two I have.
Hope this helps.