im not a presperterian (sp) but they sure have a good argument for it from the bible. im saved and filled with the Holy Spirit and i often think, why did God choose me if predestination is true. im just glad he did.
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im not a presperterian (sp) but they sure have a good argument for it from the bible. im saved and filled with the Holy Spirit and i often think, why did God choose me if predestination is true. im just glad he did.
Whoa, Chemoman, did you open a theological can of worms here!
"...even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." Ephesians 1:4 (E.S.V.)
exile
In Romans 9:29 what is predestined is that we will be conformed to Christ. Nothing more in that scripture.
I took it to mean we are predestined by God that if we believe in the Christ as our saviour then we will be equipped to do God's work on earth. Nothing in any way about predestined to be saved, that is false theology.
Ken
It is a slippery slope. If God is omniscient, He knows how you will exercise your “free will”, before you have even been born. You are making choices...but He knows what they will be.
I do not believe God is 100% omniscient wrt to the future. There are works published by Open Theists that shed light on this.
"Before I was born the Lord called me; from my mother's womb he has spoken my name." Isaiah 49:1 (N.I.V.)
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you;..." Jeremiah 1:5 (E.S.V.)
exile
Predestination vs free will
is one of a dozen or so major schisms in religiousity.
"Nobody's right, if everybody's wrong". (1)
What do you believe?
It's your choice, choose well.
Was your choice already chosen?
When you see Him ask Him.
I would like to know, too.
Try this:
Some people ride Honda Goldwings, and some people ride Harleys. Both enjoy the ride, Hondas are quiet, Harleys are loud. Each rider is convinced he has the best ride. Neither will convert the other. You can ride your Honda Goldwing with the Harley club, and a Harley might show up in the Honda club, but neither will really fit.
Or you might have a Kawazaki, a moped or a bicycle.
Who is right? Everybody is riding along just fine.
Ah, but some people hate motorcycles: "You're going to kill yourself! Those things are dangerous! I am never going to ride one, and neither should you! Wear a helmet! You're not going to take your child on that are you?"
My point? Convert the haters.
I am praying for the Fifth Great Awakening in America.
As He has done before.
Only the Holy Spirit can change a hardened heart.
"For with God nothing shall be impossible"(2)
Lord bring it!
YMMV
(1): Buffalo Springfield
(2): Luke 1:37
The example I use to explain predestination is this:
You have a son that draws automobiles as a child. As he ages the drawings of the cars seem to be more like sports cars and your son favors the color red in his drawings.
When the son graduates high school and planning on college, you make the decision to buy him a car. On the car lot is a black sedan and a red Mustang. The son has a choice to make.
Even you know your son will choose the red Mustang, there is still a choice to be made.
The same with our decisions. God knows our decisions before we make them but that does not take away our freewill.
God has a predestined plan that involves your decision. Just because He knows your choice beforehand does not change the plan or your responsibility to make your decision.
I know my Dad believed in it rather strongly.
I can clearly remember an hours long conversation he had with a friend about it.
The way I came to terms with it is this. God can see all things, the end from the beginning, I however see things differently. In a linear progression. So while God may know what will happen with me, I don't. So it is my job to do my best to be worthy of his grace. And I can let him worry about the big picture. I just keep myself headed in the right direction and hope that I don't run into the grand canyon.
I have good news, and I have good news!
First good news:
This morning we had a guest speaker, our pastor's pastor, nice old man who gave a sermon on predestination from Ephesians 1 that continued our Sunday school lesson, I took a page of notes, and we got it on Youtube! I wrote it out as a kickbutt devotional.
Next good news:
I won't post it here.
Go to church.
Are you referring to Romans 8:29?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Smith
Yes, what is predestined not who.
Well, fer goodness sake, tell us the Youtube title so we can find it!Quote:
Originally Posted by .429&H110
I have battled with this question for years.
I finally came to the conclusion that, if the answer is in scripture, I am not smart enough to figure it out.
I am ok with that. I have accepted that here is a list of things that I will not understand in this life. I came to accept this when I realized that many of the questions I run into are not "salvation critical".
Complete understanding is NOT required to receive the gift of salvation.
Jesus Christ is our Creator. All authority has been given to Him by the Father; including the judgment of men and He gives eternal life to whomever He is pleased to give it. John 5 v 21
If we are not predestined as the elect of our Creator, then the apostle Paul was either delusional or an outright deceiver. Romans 8 v28; Eph 1 v. 11
Men can’t come to Christ unless they are born of the Spirit of God. John 3 v. 3 and John 6 v. 65
Our Creator chooses who He gives eternal life to; I.e. who receives the gift of being born of the Spirit of God.
It is only then that a man can recognize his sinfulness and his need to come to Christ and be made righteous by the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Guys; if I am wrong in my understanding of this, please show me my error.
David
John 3:16 , -For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son that WHOSOEVER believeth on Him ahall not perish but have eternal life.
How can this be true if we are predestined. First the love of Christ would not be for the world but for the chosen or ones predestined. The unchosen are then hell bound with no escape. Second you could not use whosoever if it was a preselected group. Would God form mankind if the majority are to suffer eternal hell with no chance of escape ? Would Christ need to suffer death on the cross if sins forgiven were for a limited select few?
Christ's death was the one time sacrifice for all mankinds sins if they believe on Christ. Paul was a selected vessel to bring the message to the Gentiles. No one else had the knowledge or background of Paul to bring the gospel to the Gentiles.
Knowing is not causing.
Because predestination and free will are mutually exclusive I think the way to expose the weakness of the arguments for predestination is to look at the strength of the arguments for free will.
Always tell people you were predestined & chosen to receive salvation. Your Creator doesn't want you lost. He's did everything possible for you to receive salvation but left the choice to you.
There is a valid reason that the concepts of "free will" and "Predestination" have committed adherents; both are Biblically true. To protest that one of those truths precludes the other is as pointless as saying Jesus was either man or God, not both.
We who hold that Jesus was both fully man and fully God should have no serious difficulty in believing in both free will (Rev 22:17) AND in divine election (John 1:13). The Bible says both, therefore I believe both but I don't understand it. Believers don't need to agonise over our lack of understanding of how those sets of doctrine come together at the cross to be committed Christians.
Thing is, IF God had wanted us to understand all of his actions he would have explained it all. But, God has obviously chosen to NOT explain somethings. I accept his wisdom with the same faith I accepted the mandatory "new birth" (John 3:3) that I also don't understand, except in general terms.
That deserves an amen!
That was well stated.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1hole
There are examples of using scripture to justify a persons beliefs without a full understanding of the context. And as stated above, some things we are unable to understand and others seem to be in conflict.