History of the 38 Special so-called "FBI Load?"

I have enjoyed reading this thread again also. The following article appeared in The Fouling Shot issue #262

Retired “cop guns” still “serve and protect.”
Standard-Pressure .38 Special Loads for the Revolver and Cowboy Rifle

C.E. “Ed” Harris, Gerrardstown, WV

"Were it necessary for the average shooter to own and use but one revolver, it should be a .38 Special." J.S. Hatcher, Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers (1935),

From the post WW1-era until about 1980 the most widely used police handgun in the United States was a revolver chambered for the .38 Special. Introduced as a black powder cartridge in 1902, S&W simply lengthened the .38 Long Colt case from 1.03” to 1.155” to hold a heavier 21-grain vs. 18-grain black powder charge and increased its bullet weight from 148 to 158 grains. But, the most important improvements were optimizing the barrel and chamber dimensions to correctly guide and support an “inside lubricated” bullet of adequate diameter to fit the cylinder throats and the groove diameter of the barrel. S&W established these principles years earlier in perfecting the .44 Russian black powder and later .44 S&W Special smokeless cartridges, which greatly improved target accuracy.

Traditional .38 Special police service ammunition featured a 158-grain, lead round-nose, wax-lubricated, cup-based bullet of soft lead, propelled to 855 +/- 25 fps as measured from a 6-inch solid industrial test barrel. Typical revolver velocity was about 700 fps from a 2-inch snub, 800 fps in a 4-inch service gun, and about 840 fps in a 6” target revolver. Actual test results of vintage ammo depend upon manufacturing variations in barrel groove, cylinder throat diameter, and cylinder gap.

[The expected Delta-V with standard-pressure lead .38 Special ammunition is about 10 fps for each 0.001” change in barrel-cylinder gap from Mean Assembly Tolerance of 0.005-0.006”. Therefore, a 2-inch gun assembled at minimum tolerance (0.002” pass/0.003” hold) could theoretically produce higher velocity than a 4-inch gun at the customer service maximum (0.008” pass/0.009” hold)- Ed.].

After WW1 black powder loadings were replaced by smokeless. Hatcher (1935) described typical factory charges of 3.6 grains Hercules Bullseye, 18 grains of King’s Semi-Smokeless or 4.2 grains of Infallible. Once smokeless powder loads were adopted, the .38 Special became and remained the standard for US law enforcement and target shooters, making the .38 Long Colt obsolete by 1920.

The .38 Special is the most accurate revolver cartridge ever developed. Ten-shot groups fired from industrial test barrels or the best target revolvers are routinely 2" or less at 50 yards. Colt, Ruger and S&W police service revolvers were expected to produce groups of this order when firing common duty ammunition of average quality at 25 yards. Good revolvers often did much better with wadcutter loads. If you don't currently own any handgun, but have been thinking about getting one, you really can't go wrong with a sturdy .38 Special (or .357) retired “cop” gun. For this very reason the .38 Special still enjoys great popularity in US states where civilian concealed carry is permitted.

“Mid-range” target 148-grain wadcutters are ideal for general use. They are accurate, give a good knockdown blow on small game, and don't destroy much meat. They are a valid choice for personal or home defense carry in "airweight" or aluminum alloy-framed guns which cannot handle +P loads.

“Full-charge” wadcutter ammunition, which was loaded to “service velocity” was produced by the big ammunition factories for police academy and in-service training use prior to about 1970. The equivalent can be assembled today by hand loaders using cast, solid-based 146-148-grain wadcutters and 3.5 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup. Factory loads are available from Buffalo Bore.

The ideal .38 Special general-purpose load for dual-use in revolvers and cowboy rifles is a cast lead ogival flat-nose “Cowboy” bullet weighing 145 to 160 grains. This feeds reliably in lever actions, and is “speed-loader friendly” for revolver use. Hard bullets are neither necessary nor desired. Soft lead of 8-10 BHN is best. Range backstop scrap or 50-50 plumber’s lead and wheel weights with a bit of tin added to improve fill-out is good. Frugal shooters value the fact that 3.5 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup loads 2000 rounds from a pound of powder, to closely approximate factory ammunition.

Standard-pressure .38 Special ammunition (SAAMI MAP 17,000 psi max.) is most economical and practical for general recreation, field and utility use. It does not make your hand sting or your ears ring. It is more accurate out to 50 yards or meters from a revolver or 100 from a rifle, than anyone over age 50 can shoot with iron sights. A revolver dispersion of “one inch per ten” (yards) is considered acceptable for “service-grade” loads, but the best lots of 158-grain lead round-nose or semi-wadcutters approach the grouping expected of match wadcutters.

Carefully prepared hand loads with factory bulk-packed Remington 148-grain hollow-based wadcutter component bullets and 3.0-3.2 grains of Bullseye produce 2 inch, 6-shot groups at 50 yards or better from a test barrel or carefully assembled target revolver. My test platform is a Unertl-scoped BSA Martini-Cadet with 1:20” twist Green Mountain barrel and .38 AMU chamber. My best Remington-UMC, Bridgeport, CT wadcutter from the 1950s averages 1-1/2” ten-shot groups at 50 yards. A service-grade Colt, Ruger or S&W revolver will usually do about three to four inches at 50 yards firing from Ransom Rest. A good target revolver can shave an inch off that. Any well turned out .38 Special is fully adequate for field shooting small game and varmints, as well as for home defense duty.

“Traditional,” (not +P) standard-pressure factory .38 Special 158-grain lead ammo, produces about 1000 f.p.s. from a 20-inch Cowboy rifle, approximating the energy of .38 Special +P ammunition fired in a 6-inch revolver, but with lower noise. Good cast bullet hand loads will do the same with good accuracy IF your bullets “fit” the cylinder throats, and you use moderate charges which produce uniform, subsonic rifle velocities, which avoid transonic buffeting.

In .38 Special the velocity and pressure of standard 158-gr. lead factory ammo is matched by loading either 3.5 grains of Bullseye, 4 grains of 231, 452AA, or WST or 4.5 grains of WSF, 473AA, Universal, AutoComp, Unique or Herco. Typical velocity data is summarized in Table 2.

[+P loads are beyond the scope of this article, and will be addressed separately in a future entry to The Back Creek Diaries].

The Saeco #348 double-end, bevel-based wadcutter, cast 8-10 BHN, loaded unsized, and profile taper-crimped into the crimp groove, at 1.20” OAL over 3.5 grains of Bullseye is a full charge, but standard pressure load giving about 860 fps in a 6-inch revolver having 0.004-0.006” cylinder gap. It averages 2 inches or better at 50 yards at 1030 fps from my 25-inch BSA Martini with 6X Unertl scope and does nearly as well when feeding it as a “two-shooter” from my Marlin 1894 Cowboy II.

Wadcutters do not produce linear dispersion when target range increases very much beyond about 50 yards or meters, when shot from the standard S&W 18-3/4” twist barrel. A faster twist of rifling, such as the 1:10” used in 9mm Parabellum barrels and some custom PPC guns, will shoot very well past 100 yards. I would refer your attention to Bill Duncan’s article in FS 258-19 for specifics.

For dual-use in rifle and revolver ringing the 100-yard gong I prefer either the Accurate 36-155D or 36-159H flat-nosed cast bullets. Those who don’t cast can get good results from the bulk, soft-swaged 158-grain LRN Magtech cup-based bullets, over-lubed on top of the factory blue wax with 45-45-10 or LLA, loaded loading the same 3.5 grains of Bullseye. Speer 158-grain LRN and SWC bullets also shoot well, but are more expensive. All of these feed reliably from lever-actions and are good choices for field utility loads for either rifle or revolver. Hand-held from sandbags revolver groups even with 2-inch guns are “one inch per ten” [yards] or better out to 25 yards. Rifle iron sight groups of 3-4 minutes of angle, being proportional to the range are normal to well over 100 yards.

Norma .38 Special 158-gr. LRN loads fired previously as reference ammunition from my BSA Martini with 6XUnertl scope averaged 3” at 100 yards. Speer and Remington factory swaged lead round nose and semi-wad cutter bullets loaded in .38 Special cases with 3.5 grains of Bullseye averaged about 4 inches at 100 yards. Vintage 1950s factory loads such as Remington Targetmaster LRN, Western Lubaloy, WRA and Rem-UMC Police Service all fell into the same accuracy range.

+P,.38 Special cast loads fired in the Martini Cadet and Marlin cowboy rifles did not group as well at 100 yards as subsonic, standard-pressure factory or hand loads. This is because bullets are subjected to transonic buffeting as their velocity decays below the speed of sound. A good working velocity benchmark for .38 Special Cowboy rifle loads to also be used in a revolver is to seek from 900 to 1080 f.p.s. from a 20-inch barrel, so there is no “crack” to disturb the neighbors.

A flat-nosed .38 Special bullet with meplat 0.6 or more of bullet diameter is effective on groundhogs, wild turkey and larger edible critters raiding your garden, providing through-and-through penetration, with minimal meat damage so that you can “eat right up to the bullet hole!”

Table 1 - 38 Special Factory Loads - Velocity vs. Barrel Length

_________________S&W Mod.10, 2” S&W Mod.10 4”__ S&W HE 6”____BSA Cadet 25”
------------------------0.005”cyl.gap___0.005”cyl.gap_____0.005”cyl.gap___ solid barrel

Rem-UMC 148 HBWC_702 fps, 12 Sd__747 fps, 6 Sd____804 fps, 7 Sd____897fps, 17Sd
WRA SM 148 HBWC__697 fps, 18 Sd__742 fps, 13 Sd___783 fps, 13 Sd___857 fps, 11 Sd
W-W Q4196 158 LRN__728 fps, 24 Sd _793 fps, 10 Sd___814 fps, 19 Sd___958 fps, 13 Sd
Rem-UMC 200 LRN___627fps, 27 Sd__702 fps, 22 Sd___ 747 fps, 16 Sd___895 fps, 15 Sd
Win. 158-gr. LHP +P___831 fps, 10 Sd__920 fps 21 Sd___952 fps, 11 Sd__1093 fps, 19 Sd

Column Mean________717 fps_______781 fps________820 fps________940 fps
∆V from 4”_________-64 fps________Baseline_______+39 fps________+159 fps

Table 2 - Standard Pressure .38 Special Load Data

_________________Ruger SP101, 2” Ruger Serv.Six 4”___Marlin 24”
--------------------------0.005”cyl.gap___0.005”cyl.gap________solid barrel

Saeco #348 146 DEWC, wheel weights, OAL 1.25”
3.0 grs. Bullseye_____691fps, 9 Sd___736 fps, 15 Sd_______804 fps, 17 Sd
3.5 grs. Bullseye_____792 fps, 9 Sd___863 fps, 7 Sd_______1062 fps,5 Sd
4.0 grs. W231_______653 fps, 21 Sd__ 837 fps, 22 Sd______900 fps, 32 Sd

Saeco #358 160-grain “Cowboy” FN, wheel weights, OAL 1.45”
3.0 grs. Bullseye_____650 fps, 26 Sd__825 fps, 18 Sd_______884 fps, 7 Sd
3.5 grs. Bullseye_____711 fps, 14 Sd__853 fps, 21 Sd_______956 fps, 7 Sd
4.0 grs. Bullseye_____809 fps, 13 Sd__901, fps, 12 Sd______1096 fps, 3 Sd
4.9 grs. AutoComp___725 fps, 10 Sd__850 fps, 15 Sd_______1001 fps, 34 Sd

Accurate 36-190T Flat nose, 195 grains 1:30 alloy, OAL 1.53”
2.7 grs. Bullseye_____595 fps, 29 Sd__685 fps, 28 Sd_______789 fps, 12 Sd
3.0 grs. Bullseye_____631 fps, 14 Sd__716 fps, 28 Sd_______816 fps, 13 Sd
3.2 grs. Bullseye_____662 fps, 7 Sd___737 fps, 11 Sd_______865 fps, 24 Sd
4.5 grs. AutoComp___603 fps, 7 Sd___735 fps, 18 Sd_______911fps, 30 Sd

The followup to the previous article covers the development of +P loads, in The Fouling Shot issue #263

Tales From The Back Creek Diary - Old Cop Guns Retire to Outdoor Duty

“Loads for the .38-44 High Velocity (.38 Special +P) or .357 Revolver and Cowboy Rifle”

By the late 1920s, US law enforcement agencies sought revolver ammunition producing better “stopping power” which could also defeat metal automobile bodies. Two approaches tried were a heavier 200-grain .38 Special, following the British Army pattern, and a high-velocity loading of the standard 158-grain round-nosed lead bullet. The 200-grain Super Police load at 685 fps produced mixed results, but the Super-X and Remington High Velocity 158-grain LRN loads at 1125 fps quickly earned street “cred.” S&W introduced its .38/44 Heavy Duty, built on the heat-treated .44 Hand Ejector frame in 1930, with 5-inch barrel and fixed sights. A 4-inch version followed in 1935, the first such specimen being given to J. Edgar Hoover of the FBI.

The .38-44 High Velocity loads were intended only for the Colt New Service, Official Police and S&W Heavy Duty (N-frame) revolvers. Both lead round-nose and “metal capped” versions were offered. Advertising of the gangster era indicated that the .38-44 Super-X cartridge could penetrate eleven 7/8 inch thick pine boards or just as easily perforate a metal auto trunk lid, seats, dashboard and firewall clear into the engine compartment.

The S&W .38/44 Heavy Duty and Colt Official Police were readily accepted by cash-strapped Depression-era police departments whose budgets didn’t allow expensive, S&W .357 “Registered Magnums” and Colt Shooting Masters. S&W Heavy-Duty production totaled 11,111 before halted for WWII. Glowing field reports encouraged Smith & Wesson to develop the .357 Magnum in 1935. Elmer Keith, D.B. Wesson and Phillip B. Sharpe experimented with heavy charges of SR80 and later #2400 powder in the .38 Special, loading a long-nosed Keith SWC bullet, which enabled reducing seating depth to maintain maximum powder capacity. When US ammunition factories finally introduced the .357 Magnum, its cartridge case was lengthened by 0.135” to preclude its being chambered in older .38 Special revolvers, as a safety feature. This proved to be correct.

After WWII, S&W began shipping .38/44 Heavy Duty revolvers again in the summer of 1946. Postwar S&W serial numbers are prefixed by the letter S. There were over 8,700 transition models manufactured between 1946-1950. Heavy N-frame S&W .38 Special revolvers proved popular with hand loaders who experimented with heavy charges which approached .357 Magnum performance. The 38/44 Heavy Duty Model of 1950 was also in great demand during the Korean conflict, because the Super-X and Remington Highway Master Metal Penetrating ammunitions were said to defeat Chinese body armor, which stopped .45 ACP hardball.

In 1954 S&W introduced a plain-finished .357 Magnum on the .44 Hand Ejector frame with 4-inch barrel and adjustable sights, which it named the Highway Patrolman. This ultimately sturdy duty gun of cop’s dreams continued in production until 1986. In 1957, the "Heavy Duty" fixed sight .38 Special was designated the S&W Model 20, while the adjustable-sighted .38 Special "Outdoorsman" became the Model 23 and the adjustable sight .357 Magnum Highway Patrolman became the Model 28.

Production of the S&W .38-44 Heavy Duty Model 20 continued into the early 1960s. The last known Model 20s (no dash) were shipped in 1963. The last known Model 20-marked guns, were Model 20-2s shipped in late 1964 to the Austin, TX Police Department. In 1966, the Model 20 was finally dropped from the S&W catalog. From 1946-1966, a total of 20,604 S&W Heavy Duty revolvers were manufactured. Compared to other S&W models the .38-44 Heavy Duty is scarce and is eagerly sought out by both collectors and serious shooters.

Colt came late to the party. When WW2 ended, Colt made a monumental marketing blunder. Management assumed (in error) that its post-War customers would still buy the same fixed sight, .38 Special revolvers they had before the war. It was presumed that the .357 Magnum would be a low-volume, low-profit, specialty item, so upper management ignored it. Because the New Service and Shooting Master models were discontinued during the war, this left Colt then with no double-action revolver in production which could be chambered for the .357. Only a few Shooting Master .357s were produced from 1935-1940 and these are highly collectible.

Realizing their mistake a day late and a dollar short, an improved medium-frame revolver was built on the Official Police "E" frame, changing the hammer mounted firing pin to a spring loaded firing pin mounted inside the frame. Heat treatment was enhanced to increase strength to handle the .357 Magnum round. The new frame was designated as the "I" frame, introduced in 1953 as The Colt .357, manufactured until 1961 when it was discontinued after about 15,000 revolvers had been produced.

Municipal police departments couldn’t afford the higher-priced Colt .357, preferring the lower-cost, “plain-vanilla” .38 Special Colt Trooper or its S&W competitors, the .38-44 Heavy Duty or .357 Highway Patrolman. With Colt .357 sales lagging, the company simplified its revolver line in 1961 by discontinuing the Colt 357 and offering a lower-priced, plain-finished Trooper in .357 Magnum as well as in .38 Special. The original Colt .38 Trooper was manufactured on the "E" frame used for the Army Special and Official Police, which had the firing pin pivoted on the hammer. The Colt 357 and Python both used the "I" frame. In 1961 Colt switched all Trooper production to the "I" frame, producing an affordable, sturdy, plain-finished cop gun and completely discontinued the "E" frame. The Trooper .357 sold fairly well until 1969 when Colt discontinued all of their old-style "E&I" frame revolvers except for the Python.

In the 1970s the Southwestern Institute of Forensic Sciences as well as the National Institute of Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice evaluated the effectiveness of incapacitation achieved by firing common .38 Special police duty ammunition. This was accomplished by comparing “energy deposit” data from test firings in ballistic gelatin tissue simulant. Both studies agreed that .38 Special revolvers firing 158 grain lead round nose at any velocity were inferior in "stopping power" to other calibers and bullet designs. As street criticism of the .38 Special cartridge increased in intensity, a few US police agencies adopted the .357 Magnum, 9mm Luger or .45 ACP. But the great majority of police departments simply wanted more effective .38 Special ammunition, which could be used safely in their existing revolvers. Again, two schools of thought were pursued.

From 1963-74 Lee Jurras of Super Vel developed light-weight, jacketed hollow-point .38 Special loads capable of producing reliable expansion from standard revolvers, while reducing the risk of over-penetration. Super Vel proved the concept, but in 1974 the company was bought out by its competitors. By the late 1960s and early 70s Winchester dominated the .38 Special law enforcement ammunition market. Winchester-Western continued to improve the already established Super Vel concepts by introducing the modern skived jacket in its 110-grain jacketed HP Q4070 Treasury load. Soon after they followed with a 158-grain all-lead hollow-point which became widely known as the “FBI Load. Both of these specialty ammunitions substantially exceeded standard pressure, being designated on their packaging “For Law Enforcement Use Only.”

The great advantage of standard-weight, soft-lead, semi-wadcutters was that they would shoot to the fixed sights of most existing department revolvers, and did not require re-zeroing. Hollow points of soft alloy, having correct cavity geometry would expand even when fired from 2-inch barrels, when loaded to the higher velocities and pressure of what later became known as +P loads. Barrel leading and cylinder binding were recognized as problems in revolvers not having a cylinder gas ring to reduce lead deposits getting into the crane arbor. S&W therefore changed the location of the gas ring from the yoke to the cylinder itself.

While improved .38 Special high-velocity loadings assembled with all-lead or serrated-jacket hollow point bullets improved street performance, it was soon realized that .38 Special cartridges generating pressures substantially exceeding about 16,000 cup could not be fired continuously in small steel frame, such as the Colt Police Positive, S&W J-frame or any light-alloy frame revolvers, such as the S&W Airweight models or Colt Cobra or Agent, without severely curtailing the service life of the guns. This was because they were not designed to withstand high-volume fire of the more powerful ammunition. To mitigate against inadvertent use of high velocity ammunition in older service weapons which were not specifically designed for it, the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer’s Institute (SAAMI) adopted, in 1974, the practice of identifying higher pressure ammunition exceeding 17,000 c.u.p. with a +P head-stamp.

.38 Special: 17,000 psi (std.); 20,000 psi (+P) = 17% increase in pressure

By the mid-1970s most police organizations found it most cost-effective to replace their older .38 Special revolvers with similarly-sized .357 models which incorporated the necessary heat treatment and engineering enhancements to improve ruggedness and durability. Ruger recognized a marketing opportunity and developed its “Six” series service revolvers. After a rough initial start, early quality and reliability issues of the Ruger Service, Speed and Security Six were resolved. By the late 1970s the Ruger was a viable competitor in government contracts to Colt and S&W.

Sturdy revolvers such as the Colt Trooper, Ruger Six series, S&W 13 and 19 could use lower-cost .38 Special ammunition for training and practice, and held up to high-volume training and duty use of .38 Special +P ammunition, while retaining the ability to fire full-charge .357 Magnum loads if the tactical situation required.

In 1972, the FBI officially adopted the Winchester XD38SPD .38 Special +P all-lead, hollow-point semi-wadcutter. This expanded well in ordnance gelatin tissue simulant when fired at typical velocities produced by the service revolvers then issued. The FBI load proved highly satisfactory in numerous officer involved shootings using both 2- and 4-inch barreled revolvers and was widely adopted by many Federal, state and municipal law enforcement agencies. Remington and Federal thereafter developed equivalents to compete in contract bid processes. The Remington R38S12 load is still manufactured, whereas Federal’s 38G is not.

New York State Troopers Law Enforcement Evaluation of the .357 Magnum

In 1968 the New York State Troopers evaluated the .357 Magnum cartridge for State Police service, comparing the .38 Special Smith and Wesson Model 10 and .357 Magnum Smith and Wesson Model 19 revolvers, both models being equipped from the factory with four-inch barrels. Testing was done with then current-issue .38 Special 158 Grain lead SWC standard pressure and the .357 Magnum 158 Grain JSP loads, both manufactured by Remington. Published catalog velocity of the .38 Special from a 6 inch solid test barrel was 855 fps, and the .357 Magnum – from an 8-3/8" test barrel - 1550 fps. Actual measured revolver velocity of the .38 Special from a 4-inch barrel, firing standard pressure Remington 158-grain SWC ammo was 789 fps, versus 1,238 fps for .357 Magnum soft-points of the same brand and bullet weight.

Penetration testing involved shooting through 12-inch square panels of 5/8 inch thick, five-ply plywood, spaced two inches apart, stacked one behind the other. The .38 Special penetrated 6 boards, whereas the .357 penetrated 9 boards. NY State Troopers were trained to "stop” the aggressor from continuing resistance. The chosen ammunition selected for police service must discourage ricochets, penetrate auto bodies, expand on contact, yet remain in one intact piece to facilitate positive forensic identification.

During the New York State Troopers evaluation of the .357 Magnum, a prime concern was whether the average Trooper could handle the additional muzzle blast and recoil. An academy recruit training class fired the normal 60-round Police Pistol Course with both .38 Special Wadcutter ammunition and .357 Magnum ammunition, repeating six trips over the course, alternating with each type of ammunition, or twelve PPC courses being fired in all. The average score using .38 Special lead semi-wadcutter ammunition was 243 out of a possible 300 points. The average score firing .357 Magnum was 235. NYSP concluded that there was no significant loss in effectiveness or efficiency with the .357 Magnum compared to .38 Special, when considering the trainee skill level of the academy test group firing the S&W Model 28 revolver, which upon completion of testing proved more durable than the lighter K-frame Model 19, it then being approved for issue by the NY State Troopers.

"As a rural police agency, NYSP responds to a significant number of complaints which involve dangerous animals…” from 1972 to 1974, incidents involving the destruction of animals, show increased effectiveness of the .357 Magnum compared to the .38 Special, when circumstances indicated that the handgun vs. the 12-ga.shotgun should be used. While the most cases usually involved wild game such as black bear, vehicle wounded deer, rabid raccoon, etc., many cases involved destruction of domestic livestock, such as horses, cows, sheep, etc. Of animals destroyed by handgun fire, it took an average of 2.5 rounds of .38 Special ammunition to kill each animal compared to 1.7 rounds for the .357, based on 340 incidents, 159 where the .38 Special was used and 181, using the .357 Magnum.”

Some hand loaders still cautiously hand load heavy .38 Special loads in the manner defined by Keith’s experiments of the late 1920s and early 1930s. My experience in doing so suggests that many loads published in vintage gun books and magazines are excessive and unsafe, exceeding modern .38 Special +P standards.

By careful reading of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition (2010) on pages 256-259 I determined to my own satisfaction that .38 Special +P and a selected few “starting” .357 Magnum loads could be safely adapted, using common cast bullets, at a normal overall cartridge length usable in the .38 Special.

Bullet substitutions and slightly reduced charges I have determined suitable in my revolvers are listed in Table 1. When assembled in .38 Special brass at the same OAL or longer, as stated in the Lyman listing, I have found them are safe in .357-chambered guns and sturdy .38 Special revolvers such as the Colt Official Police, S&W Heavy Duty and Ruger “Six” series.

Table 1 - Ed Harris’s .38-44 loads and the RCBS Little Dandy Rotors Used to Dispense Them
Derived from Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition, pgs. 256-259. [Universal Receiver with 4” vented SAAMI test barrel]

#358477, 150 grains, Linotype, minimum OAL 1.51” – substituting Accurate 36-150L at same OAL
11.0 grs. #2400 (.357 “start” load) 998 fps, 17,900 cup – p. 258 I use RCBS LD rotor #13 for 10.2 grs.
#358156, 155 grains, #2 alloy, minimum OAL 1.46”- substituting Accurate 36-155D @ 1.53” OAL.
4.4 grains Bullseye (.38 Spl +P load) 915 fps, 18,100 cup – p. 256 – My RCBS LD rotor #8 meters this.
8.8 grains #2400 (.38 Spl. +P load) 953 fps, 17,300 cup – p. 256 – RCBS LD #11 meters 8.4 grs.

#358311, 160 grains, Linotype, minimum OAL 1.55” - substituting Accurate 36-159H at same OAL
4.1 grains Bullseye (.38 Spl. +P) 936 fps, 18,300 cup – p. 256 – RCBS LD rotor #7 for 4.0 grs.
11.4 grs. #2400 (.357 “start” load) 1024 fps, 20,200 cup - p. 259 – I use RCBS LD rotor #14 meters 11 grs.
11.8 grains IMR4227 (.357 “start” load) 977 fps, 19,600 cup – p. 259 –RCBS LD rotor #15 meters 11.5 grs.

#358429, 170 grains, Linotype, minimum OAL 1.55” – substituting Accurate 36-168H @ 1.55” OAL
9.9 grains #2400 (.357 “start” load) 879 fps, 15,900 cup – p.259 – I use RCBS LD #12 meters 9.3 grs.
9.8 grains IMR4227 (.357 “start” load) 835 fps, 14,100 cup – p.259 – My RCBS LD rotor #13 meters this.

Table 2 - Ed Harris’s .357 Magnum loads and RCBS Little Dandy Rotors Used To Dispense Them
Derived from Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition, pgs. 258-259. [Universal Receiver with 4” vented SAAMI test barrel]

#358477, 150 grains, Linotype, minimum OAL 1.51” substituting Accurate 36-150L at same OAL
15.0 #2400 (max. listed .357 load) 1362 fps, 41,400 cup. – p. 258 I use RCBS LD rotor #18 for 14.6 grs.
16.0 IMR4227 (max. listed .357 load) 1333 fps, 40,200 cup. – p. 258 I use RCBS LD rotor #19 for 15 grs.

#358156, 155 grains, Linotype, minimum OAL 1.59”substituting Accurate 36-155K at same OAL
14.0 #2400 (max. listed .357 load) 1299 fps, 41,900 cup. – p.258 – RCBS LD rotor #17 meters 13.5 grs.
15.2 IMR4227 (max. listed .357 load) 1254 fps, 41,300 cup. – p.258 – RCBS LD rotor #19 meters 15.1 grs.

#358429, 170 grains, Linotype, minimum OAL 1.55”substituting Accurate 36-168H at same OAL
13.5 grs. #2400 (max. listed .357 load) 1242 fps, 41,100 cup. – p. 259 – RCBS LD#16 meters 12.8 grs.
14.5 grs. IMR4227 (max. listed .357 load) 1233 fps, 40,800 cup. – p. 259 – RCBS LD#18 meters 14.3 grs.

Saeco #354, 180 grains, Linotype, minimum OAL 1.59” substituting 36-185F at same OAL
12.3 grs. #2400 (max. .357 load) 1163 fps, 42,000 cup – p.259 – RCBS LD#15 meters 11.9 grs.
14.2 grs. IMR4227 (max. .357 load) 1171 fps, 42,500 cup. – p. 259 – My RCBS LD#18 meters this.

Table 3 - Factory .38 Special +P and .357 Mag. Velocities and .38 Special (.38-44) Handloads

.357 Factory Loads Reference:______S&W Model 28 4” ”____Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”
.357 Mag. Super-X 158-gr.Lubaloy__1236, 8 Sd (fr.S&W Mod. 28)__1307 fps, 36 Sd__1950s
.357 Mag. Rem-UMC 158-gr. SWC__1221 fps, 23 Sd(S&W Mod28)_1287 fps, 27 Sd___1950s

.38 Special Factory Loads Reference: S&W .38-44 HD 4”____Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”

Super-X 158-grain Metal Penetrating__939 fps, 9 Sd____________1009 fps, 13 Sd___1950s
Old Super-X 158-grain LRN .38-44_____994 fps, 23 Sd___________1024 fps, 11 Sd__Large Primer 1930s
Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. LHP+P____909 fps, 16 Sd____________936 fps, 16 Sd___1990s

“.38-44” Handloads in .38 Special brass, W-W cases, WSP primer:

Saeco #348 146DEWC 8.9 grs.#2400___922 fps,12 Sd___________1005fps, 34 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 4.0 grs. Bullseye+P______871 fps, 5 Sd_____________902 fps, 14 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 5.5 grs. AutoComp+P____902 fps, 14 Sd____________947 fps, 11 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 11.5 IMR4227+P________914 fps, 22 Sd____________981 fps, 18 Sd
Acc. 36-190T 8.4 #2400+P___________888 fps, 21 Sd_____________926 fps, 37 Sd

Outpost75, that's a great contribution to the thread. Thank you! I really enjoy this thread and others like it.
Tim

Thank You Outpost75

I have great respect for the 38 Special and DA revolvers chambered for it.
The 38 Special has been studied and refined over its long life. What started as a very good cartridge was developed into an outstanding cartridge. It is one of the most versatile cartridges you will ever find.

Some of the hard earned knowledge concerning ammunition selection and revolver tactics is being lost to younger generations but I don't believe it will ever be completely lost.

Thanks, Outpost. Good info

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johniv

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd3v_fssabI
Interesting info on calibers, .44 included.
This may have been posted here before, but worth a listen.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by johniv

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd3v_fssabI
Interesting info on calibers, .44 included.
This may have been posted here before, but worth a listen.

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Interesting and very informative. I never would have believed that the human body could take that kind of abuse to CoM and keep going if it hadn’t come from a first hand witness.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Outpost75

issuing to new agent classes heavy barrel 3" or 4" S&W round butt Model 10s, (usually 10-6 or 10-8s) with Tyler T-grip adapter.

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I take it Tyler’s order fulfillment was a hair faster in those days.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jtarm

I take it Tyler’s order fulfillment was a hair faster in those days.

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Correct. The government got his entire production.

Attachment 265245
Got this little beauty coming next week. 1956 vintage. Looking forward to trying some powder coated softer alloy boolits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cosmic_Charlie

Attachment 265245
Got this little beauty coming next week. 1956 vintage. Looking forward to trying some powder coated softer alloy boolits.

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Great find! I love the Combat Masterpiece!

I wish Tyler would sell their mom and pop operation to someone who would put them into regular production and stop the chronic shortage of their product................

I've never had a problem with Tyler products.
Their ordering system is a bit old school but it works.

I doubt there is enough demand for their products to justify scaling up their manufacturing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ddixie884

I wish Tyler would sell their mom and pop operation to someone who would put them into regular production and stop the chronic shortage of their product................

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What people don't understand is that T-grips are not a stock item. Each is made to order. Therefore it takes time, but if you want a T-grip to fit your 1914 Colt New Service .455 Eley or 1920 Police Positive, or 1933 .38 Banker's Special they are the only ballgame in town.

"What people don't understand is that T-grips are not a stock item. Each is made to order."...not sure this is current but I was a distributor for Ts back in the late 1990s to mid 2000s when Mr. Tyler's niece and her husband owned the company. The Ts are made in batches, not to order. Batches in that a lot of Ns are made, then Ks, then Js so depending where on the cycle your order comes in will determine the wait time...

People worry about ordering one T, paying for it up front then having to wait a few weeks to a few months to get it... Try pre-paying for 100-125 and having to wait 3-8 months for the whole order to come in...

If the current owner was smart he would just dump batches as he completes them on ebay or GunBroker. That way there is no waiting complaints and the Ts would sell well above his retail... I just found a few leftover ones a few months ago and they all sold for the $50-70 range...

Bob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RJM52

"What people don't understand is that T-grips are not a stock item. Each is made to order."...not sure this is current but I was a distributor for Ts back in the late 1990s to mid 2000s when Mr. Tyler's niece and her husband owned the company. The Ts are made in batches, not to order. Batches in that a lot of Ns are made, then Ks, then Js so depending where on the cycle your order comes in will determine the wait time...

People worry about ordering one T, paying for it up front then having to wait a few weeks to a few months to get it... Try pre-paying for 100-125 and having to wait 3-8 months for the whole order to come in...Bob

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That probably remains the case for the K-l and N- most common sizes. For Colts other than the most common size for the OP and Python, when they will make them for the older frames such as the New Service, it is to the specific order.

Ben patiently waiting for one to fit my Service Six since before the Chicom virus craze.

Looking through my old reloading manuals the other day I found a LYMAN mid-1950s vintage but the cover is missing so I can't tell you what # it is... Since it lists the .44 Magnum as a "new" cartridge with the note "send for free factory bulletin" it must be around 1955/6.

For ".38 Spec. High Vel." loads to be used in "Heavy Frame Guns Only" they have the following listed:

148 grain cast Hollow Base #358395
UNIQUE 7.7/1285
2400 13.5/1380

150 grain Thompson GC HP #358156
UNIQUE 6.4/1154
2400 13.5/1227

155 grain Keith HP #358439
2400 12.0/1230

158 grain Thompson Cast Plain Base #358156
2400 11.8/1210

If one has a LoadData.com account and types in 38-44 two listing come up, one test is a Colt SAA and the other S&W OUTDOORSMAN.

There are 66 loads with most of the modern powders with jacketed and cast bullets weighing from 110 to 180 grains. The cast bullets from 150 to 180 grains all have top end velocities in the 1200s just like the LYMAN manual does.

With all do respect to Mr. Harris...
"Some hand loaders still cautiously hand load heavy .38 Special loads in the manner defined by Keith’s experiments of the late 1920s and early 1930s. My experience in doing so suggests that many loads published in vintage gun books and magazines are excessive and unsafe, exceeding modern .38 Special +P standards."
....that was the whole point of the .38-44. One doesn't use these loads in a .38 Special even if rated for +P. They all have the disclaimer ...
"Warning! Notes: THE FOLLOWING LOADS EXCEED SAAMI PRESSURE LIMITS FOR THE .38 SPECIAL. They should ONLY be used in .38 Special revolvers with a ".44" or ".45" frame such as the Colt SAA, New Service, Smith & Wesson N-Frame "Heavy Duty" and "Outdoorsman" revolvers. Pressures approach those common with the .357 Magnum and should only be used in the above revolvers that are in good condition. Use with caution. A Smith & Wesson .38-44 Outdoorsman with a 6 1/2-inch barrel was used to test loads. Starline cases used throughout. Temperature during testing was 46 degrees Fahrenheit. (Handloader Issue #243 - October, 2006)"

Another observation...if poor little S&W J-frame snubbies, not the Magnum but original, can barely handle .38 Special +P, why did S&W make the 940 in 9mm which is running almost twice the pressure of the .38 Special... And I have a TK Custom cylinder for my 649-1 that is cut to take .38 Super...at 30-35K psi...zero issues...smooth ejection, round primers...

Bob

The recent J frames are of harder steels than the old ones in 38 and are chambered in 357 so 9mm is also suitable.

Also note that Smith does not sell an aluminum J frame in 9mm or 357. Only steel or scandium. There is a reason why. An aluminum J frame in 9mm or 357 would have a very short service life expectancy.

Smith did not rate the J frame 38s for Plus P until some years after their introduction. Harder steel is why, and they were rated for it after the change was made. Wholesale use of 38 Plus P in aluminum J framed guns that have Plus P stamped on the barrel to indicate their suitability for its use is still best avoided.

I think some folks look at that little J-frame and assume it is weak because it is small. They are not weak.
I'm not in favor of abusing any gun and a steady diet of +P loads in an aluminum J-frame is not a good idea.
However, as pointed out, the quality of the steel used in those little J-frames has improved over the years. In addition to the materials used, the design is quite strong.
Look at the locking notches on the cylinder, they are offset and not located over the thin portion of the chamber wall. Look at the barrel shank where it protrudes through the frame, it is completely supported and very little of it protrudes through the frame. Those little J-frames are stout guns.