S&W Shield 40 Leading/Tumbling Issues

I've ran into a road block when casting and loading for my S&W Shield 40. Seems like no matter what I do the barrel leads like crazy after 5-10 shots and half the boolits are tumbling at 7yds. My mould is the Lee TL 401-175, they are coming out .401-.403 in and 176-178gr, my estimated BH is 10 (cast one pure lead boolit and one alloy boolit and sandwiched a BB in between them, measured each dimple and did the math). I have tried LAA lube loaded as cast and sized .401. Also tried powder coating as cast, sized then PC, PC then sized .401. Slugged the bore with pure lead and it came out .4015. Using Lee push through .401 sizer, Lee Loadmaster, Lee Carbide Dies, no crimp, no FCD, OAL 1.125". Using Hodgdon Universal Powder, I've tried from 4.0gr (800fps, actual) to 5.2 gr (970 fps, actual). I have only had one chambering issue, boolit bulged the case to much.

I haven't had this problem with my LCP 380, PPQ 9mm, or Springfield 1911 45acp...they all shoot PC & LLA cast very well.

This was a clean shiny barrel and after 10 PC boolits it looks like this. In one pic you can see the leading start very soon after the throat.

Leading that close to the chamber usually indicates improper bullet size.

Are you sure the Lee is sizing to .401? You should be using .402 or .403 boolits.

I agree that this is most likely due to undersized boolits


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...ba17ce493e.jpg
This is as cast

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...a437cabc76.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...4d8647b6d4.jpg
After sizing

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...0f1bc44ad5.jpg
After PC

I don’t have any as cast and PC left but they were .403.

I havent had good luck with that bullet either. Dont really know why it looks good!

I have t seen leading. That could by the way your cookin the PC. But inaccuracy YES! I have a dozen 40’s and not ine shoots it well. I have tried harder and softer as well as different powders. Wait I take some of that back my ar shoots it fine, but will not FEED IT!

I have the std 175 to try but have not shot any yet. I switched to the 145g and all my guns like that so Im blaming the TC design. (Probably not the actual issue)

If you would like to try some 145’s Ill send ya some for postage. If ya like them buy the mold.

CW

You might want to pull some loaded bullets and see what they measure, with the TL bullet and soft alloy they may be under sized.

I shoot a 150 gr SWC with out lube rings, my alloy is 15 bhn and I use the HI-Tek coating sized to .403" for my Walther PPQ .40, very accurate and no leading.

These shoot well for me. In nearly a dozen different guns.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...gvh5fvpp_1.jpg

These (like yours) Not so much..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...psem0ftpkt.jpg

CW

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cwlongshot

I havent had good luck with that bullet either. Dont really know why it looks good!

I have t seen leading. That could by the way your cookin the PC. But inaccuracy YES! I have a dozen 40’s and not ine shoots it well. I have tried harder and softer as well as different powders. Wait I take some of that back my ar shoots it fine, but will not FEED IT!

I have the std 175 to try but have not shot any yet. I switched to the 145g and all my guns like that so Im blaming the TC design. (Probably not the actual issue)

If you would like to try some 145’s Ill send ya some for postage. If ya like them buy the mold.

CW

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Are you using the LEE 401-145-SWC?
Yes I would be interested in trying a few.

My impact puller broke the other day, ordered a new one should be here soon. I'll load a few dummy rounds, pull them and see if they are getting sized down further when loading. Also ordered some Cerrosafe to cast the camber and see what the dimensions are.

EDIT---- Just ordered an analysis of my bullet alloy from RotoMetals. The lead was given to me when a family member passed away, no clue of origin or composition, and a best guestimate of hardness.

PM me an address to send them to.

CW

Sounds like they are being swagged down when loaded. Standard 40 dies wont do cast, need something to expand the case for a better fit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tackleberry41

Sounds like they are being swagged down when loaded. Standard 40 dies wont do cast, need something to expand the case for a better fit.

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Sure they will. I load with Dillon dies, no issue.
To the OP, you said the bore is 0.4015, if correct, your 0.401 is the issue. Yes even 0.0005" undersized will be an issue. I would try the 0.403 as cast size. If you are using the LFCD, that could also be an issue, making the bullets yet smaller. Pull a loaded bullet & measure that. It will tell you more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fredj338

Sure they will. I load with Dillon dies, no issue.
To the OP, you said the bore is 0.4015, if correct, your 0.401 is the issue. Yes even 0.0005" undersized will be an issue. I would try the 0.403 as cast size. If you are using the LFCD, that could also be an issue, making the bullets yet smaller. Pull a loaded bullet & measure that. It will tell you more.

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I mentioned that earlier & pulled the post. I also posted up 2 links to help with determining how leading is being caused. It seems that the OP did not want to entertain the thought of his having a boolit that was large enough "as cast" to start with at .402 -.403, & then sizing it even smaller(.401) than his slugged bbl.(.4015) would likely cause leading, PC or lubed either way.

So, perhaps the OP will pay attention now that you mentioned it again.
;)

Maybe the colored boolits in the other post & offer to get some, was distracting...
;)



Here is that earlier deleted post if anyone cares now...:


--------------------------------
These links should be helpful, if you care to go look:

http://www.lasc.us/TaylorLeadingDefined.htm

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dvdmacdaddy

...Snip...

Slugged the bore with pure lead and it came out .4015. ...Snip...

In one pic you can see the leading start very soon after the throat.

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I would agree with boolits likely being undersized. If your bbl. slugged at .4015, then IMO, you should be trying to run your boolits at .4025-.403., meaning 0.001" over groove diameter(.4015)

With the undersized boolit, "gas cutting" becomes an issue & that will run the streaks up the bbl to the muzzle, as well as erode what lube or PC you have on the boolit.

Additionally... If it is a newer bbl. there could also be some stripping of your PC or lube by the rifling as well, particularly when the boolits are undersized.

Anyway, I hope ya figure things out & work out the issues.
:)


G'Luck!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JBinMN

I mentioned that earlier & pulled the post. I also posted up 2 links to help with determining how leading is being caused. It seems that the OP did not want to entertain the thought of his having a boolit that was large enough "as cast" to start with at .402 -.403, & then sizing it even smaller(.401) than his slugged bbl.(.4015) would likely cause leading, PC or lubed either way.

So, perhaps the OP will pay attention now that you mentioned it again.
;)

Maybe the colored boolits in the other post & offer to get some, was distracting...
;)



Here is that earlier deleted post if anyone cares now...:


--------------------------------
These links should be helpful, if you care to go look:

http://www.lasc.us/TaylorLeadingDefined.htm

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm



I would agree with boolits likely being undersized. If your bbl. slugged at .4015, then IMO, you should be trying to run your boolits at .4025-.403., meaning 0.001" over groove diameter(.4015)

With the undersized boolit, "gas cutting" becomes an issue & that will run the streaks up the bbl to the muzzle, as well as erode what lube or PC you have on the boolit.

Additionally... If it is a newer bbl. there could also be some stripping of your PC or lube by the rifling as well, particularly when the boolits are undersized.

Anyway, I hope ya figure things out & work out the issues.
:)


G'Luck!

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I am entertaining the idea and I have been reading through the link you sent me. I have run them as cast TL and PC with same results.

Bullet puller arrived at lunch pulled a few bullets all of them the bottom 1/3 of the bullet was sized down to .398".


Casted a few testers at lunch and following advice from a PM. Where they suggested to check the roundness of the bullet. If I rotate the bullet and measure diameter I get anywhere from .400 to .4025 in width. I think I need a shorter bullet and a new mold.

Cwlongshot is sending me of if his 145gr to try.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dvdmacdaddy

I am entertaining the idea and I have been reading through the link you sent me. I have run them as cast TL and PC with same results.

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That you took the time to look at the links is good to read. They can be extremely useful for times such as you are having.
:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dvdmacdaddy

Bullet puller arrived at lunch pulled a few bullets all of them the bottom 1/3 of the bullet was sized down to .398".


Casted a few testers at lunch and following advice from a PM. Where they suggested to check the roundness of the bullet. If I rotate the bullet and measure diameter I get anywhere from .400 to .4025 in width. I think I need a shorter bullet and a new mold.

Cwlongshot is sending me of if his 145gr to try.

---

Since you said in the 2nd to last post above that you ran them "as cast' before & had the same trouble, and then posted that you checked them & now see that you have "out of round" boolits from the mold, so there is still an "undersize" situation to be dealt with, along with the "OOR" situation, which is exacerbating the same issue, PC-ed or lubed, & before you decide to not use that mold I would suggest you try "Beagling" the mold with with some aluminum foil tape, or even try "Lee-menting" the mold to try to offset the mold being out of round. You can also talk to Lee by phone & explain what is happening & they likely will send you a new mold if you send the bad one back. ( I have done this & it was a simple deal.)

All the 3 options are pretty easy & that way you still have a usable mold.

If you want to know more about "Beagling" a mold, or, "Lee-menting" a mold, you can use those terms in a search engine & fine a lot of descriptions on how to do them.

As far as the boolits getting swaged, of course that does not help & there are a few ways to deal with the solution to that & the one I chose was to get NOE expander plugs for oversize boolits & Lee Univ. Expander dies to use them in for all the calibers I load for. There is another option that many folks use & is very popular as well & that is the "M" dies from Lyman. There may be a couple more options for you & but I am sure most folks will mention them as they come along & read the topic here...

Once again, G'Luck!
:)

More than one person has complained about leading & the TL bullet designs in diff calibers. You could try a diff powder, Univ isn't known to cause leading issues, but ya never know. I did not see if you were using the LFCD. If so, pull a seated bullet & measure it. You may be a lot smaller dia than you think. All that early leading is saying bullet is too small. 'M' style expanders are great. You can get them for powder thru dies like Dillon or if you load on a ss or turret, Lyman or NOE.

I use an RCBS TC mold (not home so I can't give you the number) that casts 171gr with my 12.8 bhn mix. I size 0.401 measured with a micrometer and use Carnauba red as my lube. I use AA #5 powder. This round shoots well in 4 different 40S&W guns with minimal leading, including a Shield. FWIW I'm not a fan of Lee molds.

Packaged up and ready to go to you tomorrow.

CW

It’s the bullet (TL design).

I’ve tried several in 9mm, 10mm, and .45.
IMO, the foward and rear driving bands are too thin, and the molds tend to cast undersized.

On the other hand, I’ve worn out two 148gr WC 6-cavity molds and a 158gr SWC 6-cav mold casting bullets to shoot NRA PPC. (.38spl in revolvers at .358”).
I’ve gotten superlative performance from the Lee 120gr TC .356”. Mine casts to .358”, and I size to .357” for my S&W Performance Center PPC-9 Limited autos.

My .40Sheild won’t reliably feed the 145gr SWC (mine casts 155gr), but out shoots my G22 with the 175gr TCFN. I used tumble lube and size them to .401. Now, I Harbor Freight tumble powder coat them and size .401. I prefer 5.5gr of WSF, but also use 4.0gr of Bullseye.