Fun with the 8x58R in a Swedish RB

I bought a Swedish Rolling Block Sporter to keep my full military Swede RB in 12.7x44R company, and of course it has to be shot, and with cast. I have some very preliminary results to share.

Mine slugs 0.323" but with an cavernous neck (0.360") and yards of freebore - well not quite, but 0.600" is a lot.

I chose the Lee Custom molds available from MidSouth - the Karabiner (mine is 0.328" and weighs 230grs) and Maximum (mine is 0.328" and 250grs). Just lubed with Alox, Gas Check added and unsized - left at 0.328".

Brass was made from Starline 45/90 and Grafs 8x56R Hungarian, both sized in RCBS dies. The 45/90 had to have the rim turned to 0.575" and OAL shortened to 58mm (2.275"), the 8x56R just had to be sized (it is a bit short and a bit undersized at the head). Neither were annealed.

I chose the following loads:

13.0 grs Unique with the 230gr in the 8x56R brass - 1290 fps
25.0 grs H4198 with the 250gr in the 45/90 brass - 1520 fps

I'd consider both of these mid-high range (75%) loads.

The Starline 45/90 brass developed a split in the neck due to its thickness and the work hardening of being sized down - no doubt annealing would have been wise, and I will try that next time. The Grafs 8x56R brass fireformed nicely with no splits, but you can see a slight bulge above the rim (not a concern at cast bullet and Rolling Block pressures, e.g. under 30K).

Attachment 170111

L to R - Starline 45/90, sized, trimmed and fired 45/90, fired 8x56R, Grafs 8x56R, MidSouth 8mm Max, 8mm Kar

Andy,
I have an 1869 Swedish RD, like yours. The chamber is the same and I use the Lee 329 dia 205 gr rn gc boolit, cast hard. I'm also using reformed 8x56 Graf brass.

I put two wraps of 1/4" wide quilters tape around the case head to cause it to expand concentric and load 7 grs Unique under a case full to the shoulder of cream of wheat to form the cases.

I bought a die set from CH4D for the 8x58RD and have found that it over works the necks and I get splits after four to five loadings. I'm deciding between sending the dies back to CH4D to have the neck opened up for the .330 bullet or having Lee make a custom collet die ($57, IIRC).

I have had good results loading with Unique, but not with any other powders. I have been loading, trying to keep the pressures under 28Kpsi, which I am lead to believe is maximum for these rifles. The biggest challenge in loading for the 8x58RD is that the case is just too large to give consistent ignition with small charges of fast powders and the pressure ceiling comes too quickly with medium burning rate powders. I thought that XMP5744 would be a good selection but I got poor ignition, inconsistent accuracy and a lot of unburned powder when I tried it. I've been told that it works best right around 30Kpsi but I don't know just how far I want to push the pressure in a century-old rifle.

I have reached a point where I believe that the rifle will shoot better than I can manage with the open sights and am considering putting a tang sight on the gun.
I am looking to get one of the inexpensive imported tang sights but have not found a source. The $300-$600 sights are just not in my price range.

Jack

Jack, try Track of the Wolf for roller sights for the tang. I got one for 58 bucks IIRC.
Try some 4759 and see if that does anything for you. I got the best group with 13 gr of Unique 2 inches. but got fairly good groups both with 5744 and the SR4759. If you preasure up to much you will get cratered primers fairly early because of the oversize firing pin and hole. The 8MMs had the receivers rehardened and new blocks installed for the higher preasure smokeless round although it never hurts to be cautious. They are a fun rifle though.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(gja...m=RS-CREED-3-E

Try this above.

Bob

Thanks Bob,
That sight is exactly what I was looking for.

Jack

Update. I tried the Starline 45/90 brass again, but this time annealed it before sizing and again after. No neck splitting this time. I also used more of the Grafs 8x56R, and again the results were good.

45/90 Starline - expensive, needs to be annealed in forming (and likely in use), must be trimmed for length and have the rim reduced. Good results

8x56R Grafs - inexpensive, just size and use. Good results.

I'm done using 45/90.

Dont bother with the 45/90, use 7,62x54R. It will be a tad short but it doesent matter.
I shot bulets pulled out of surplus 8x57IS, boatail bullets at 196grs.

Real fun shooters, I am looking for one more to put a tangsigth on, or maybee a scope? The on I have is in VG orginal condition with its bayonet.

I'd love to have one in original military but they are a little pricey. Mine is one of the sporterized imports and it really shows promise with cast boolits. Originally I got it to rebarrel, but it shot to good. Plus it is a fun and comfortable round to shoot and should work nicely on whitetails.

Bob

I did a bit of experimenting on the weekend with a 230gr cast bullet and pretty much eliminated two powders and settled on two others.

The Good

Unique - 13.0 grs gave about 1300 fps and a low velocity spread (~25 fps).
H4198 - 28.0 grs gave about 1700 fps and an even smaller velocity spread (~20 fps).

Neither were position sensitive. Both gave a good neck seal.

The Bad

H4227 - 20.0 grs gave about 1450 fps, velocity varied by about 100 fps
H4895 - 35.0 grs gave about 1800 fps, velocity varied by about 100 fps

Both were very position sensitive, neither sealed the neck, lots of soot. Wadding is needed, would probably cut down the SD on the MV.

Will try both 2400 and SR4759 at 20.0 grs each next.

I shot some light loads of trail boss mine recently, shows some promise

Jack, two things.

I have a set of CH dies they made for my 10.5x47R from a chamber cast. If I mount the sizing die normally they vastly overwork the brass, with a very long neck. If I turn the die out a few turns I get a beautifully neck sized case, just what I wanted. Beautiful neck tension.

If you haven't bought a sight yet Dick Trenk has posted on the BPCR.net board that he has the Petersoli sights for 30% off. Contact him through DickTrenk@aol.com if you are interested.

I use RCBS dies. Can't say they overwork the brass. I use Buffalo Arms brass and some short reformed .45-70 cases. The Buffalo brass definitely needs to be annealed before you shoot it.

I installed this Marbles sight. It has windage so I picked it over the Lyman. Cost $80 with a FFL discount at Brownell's. Don't ask how it shoots. I'm a little behind keeping up with things. I see I still haven't removed the Swedish express sight as it gets in the way.

You may find value in this. May not. I'm glad to see the load levels in this thread are sane.
http://dutchman.rebooty.com/8x58rd.html

http://dutchman.rebooty.com/1889sporter.html

http://images47.fotki.com/v1474/phot...42/vb15-vi.jpg

http://images47.fotki.com/v1478/phot...42/vb10-vi.jpg

Treebone checkered steel buttplate.
http://images49.fotki.com/v1458/phot...842/vb5-vi.jpg

http://images46.fotki.com/v1483/phot...42/vb14-vi.jpg

As nice as these 1889 models are the more accurate of the Swedish rolling blocks are the 1867 12,7x44R rifles. They'll bang the gong all day long with little more than rudimentary effort.

http://images38.fotki.com/v1212/phot...842/89a-vi.jpg

m/1867-74
http://images38.fotki.com/v1218/phot...842/74a-vi.jpg

Attachment 170112
Attachment 170113

Nice pieces!

Mine's a Plain Jane sporter with the Tang Sight from Track of the Wolf that was mentionned above. Works well, but my only gripe is that while it is adjustable for windage, you have to reset it each time you change the elevation - you can't have it all for $60.

Load development continues. I do not intend to move the 230gr PB cast bullet past 1800 fps, and then only with the slower powders, keeping pressures to 26K PSI and lower. Doing that greatly increases brass life too (with annealing every few uses).

I came back to re-visit this thread after reading through this other thread just now:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=63851

I have to say again that I'm really glad to see prudent and responsible load data for this caliber in this rifle. I've actually been ridiculed (by one particular Aussie) for being overly safety conscious and being concerned for less knowledgeable shooters. I answer such ridicule with a one finger salute.

This forum is becoming my favorite place because I'm learning things that focus on what I'm doing right now. I'm working with this rolling block and caliber right now. I'm dealing with brittle Buffalo Arms brass... right now. I'm about to <eat crow> experiment with 8x58R Hungarian.. right now. I really appreciate the work you guys put into this particular area because we had zero knowledge about the caliber & rifle combination prior to 2000 when they started being imported into the U.S.

Andy - I'd like to talk to you about putting your work onto a webpage at my website. You're the first person I'm aware of who's attacked this with the level of care and methodology. Too many newbie rolling block owners are trying to make .30-06 out of these rifles. If you could put all your work-up onto one page it would be seen from Australia to Sweden to Germany to Italy. My webpages on the 1889 and 8x58RD get a lot of traffic from international visitors. Your work needs to be seen by that same wide audience. Let me know if you'll consider it.

Dutch
(with many Lasby/Challenor/Crowther/Lawrence/Minns cousins in Canada)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andy_P

I did a bit of experimenting on the weekend with a 230gr cast bullet and pretty much eliminated two powders and settled on two others.

The Good

Unique - 13.0 grs gave about 1300 fps and a low velocity spread (~25 fps).
H4198 - 28.0 grs gave about 1700 fps and an even smaller velocity spread (~20 fps).

Neither were position sensitive. Both gave a good neck seal.

The Bad

H4227 - 20.0 grs gave about 1450 fps, velocity varied by about 100 fps
H4895 - 35.0 grs gave about 1800 fps, velocity varied by about 100 fps

Both were very position sensitive, neither sealed the neck, lots of soot. Wadding is needed, would probably cut down the SD on the MV.

Will try both 2400 and SR4759 at 20.0 grs each next.

---

I had really good luck out of 4759 and the Lee custom 230gr gas check boolit. I think the load was a little over 20gr and was giving right around 1500fps. Very pleasant to shoot and was around 2MOA which is as good as I can do with irons. Your rifle is in a bunch better shape than mine stock wise though.
I really wanted one of the 12MM versions but by the time I ordered they were gone and there weren't anymore imported by Kebco.

Bob

Allan's Armory has four 1867 rifles in various flavors. His rifles come from.... Kebco.

http://www.allans-armory.com/aaresult.php?PageId=59


Dutch

Damn Dutch, you would have to go and alert me to those, especially when my budget is in the dumper. Now I have to figure what I can sell to get one. JJJEEESSHH I don't think I have much on the credit card right now.[smilie=b:

Bob

I've a bog standard military version in good nick that shoots the 8x58R just great.

My current load of choice is 35.5 gns of Vihtavuori N135 under a 255 gn Swede Nelson Mauser boolit, sized .321", BHN 14, Carnauba Red lube in Buffalo arms cases, Murom KVB-7 large rifle primers for an average velocity of 1670 fps.

Anyone know of a no gunsmithing aperture rear sight for this rifle?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dutchman

I came back to re-visit this thread after reading through this other thread just now:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=63851

I have to say again that I'm really glad to see prudent and responsible load data for this caliber in this rifle. I've actually been ridiculed (by one particular Aussie) for being overly safety conscious and being concerned for less knowledgeable shooters. I answer such ridicule with a one finger salute.

This forum is becoming my favorite place because I'm learning things that focus on what I'm doing right now. I'm working with this rolling block and caliber right now. I'm dealing with brittle Buffalo Arms brass... right now. I'm about to <eat crow> experiment with 8x58R Hungarian.. right now. I really appreciate the work you guys put into this particular area because we had zero knowledge about the caliber & rifle combination prior to 2000 when they started being imported into the U.S.

Andy - I'd like to talk to you about putting your work onto a webpage at my website. You're the first person I'm aware of who's attacked this with the level of care and methodology. Too many newbie rolling block owners are trying to make .30-06 out of these rifles. If you could put all your work-up onto one page it would be seen from Australia to Sweden to Germany to Italy. My webpages on the 1889 and 8x58RD get a lot of traffic from international visitors. Your work needs to be seen by that same wide audience. Let me know if you'll consider it.

Dutch
(with many Lasby/Challenor/Crowther/Lawrence/Minns cousins in Canada)

---

I'd be happy to.

Since posting that I've done a bit of work with SR4759 (as I indicated I would) and it's a great choice, as I've found it to be in every cartridge I've tried it with.

P.S. I just picked up a very nice M1889 - full wood (albeit heavily sanded), but great metal, tight action and good bore, for Cdn $350. :smile:

After some playing, I have determined that there's another option for making 8X58RD, even though 8X56 Hungarian remains a fine solution (albeit it's difficult to find).

338 Win Mag.

Remove the belt and a few thou from the base as required (to 0.500" - a "no-bulge" diameter), but don't touch the rim. Anneal, F/L size and trim to length and anneal again - done. The rim diameter is small, but the extractor usually catches it. The rim is also thinner than spec as is 8X56R Hungarian, but there are commonly-used techniques to compensate for that - the rim can be shimmed from behind with an o-ring, or the cast bullet can be engaged with the rifling, either of which pushes the base against the breech. After fireforming, most of us neck-size so the shoulder will maintain headspace, or the o-ring or loading method (bullet against rifling) can be maintained.

338 is my first choice among belted magnums, but so would any belted magnum, but 338 Win Mag is close to correct final length, as are 7mm Rem Mag and 264 Rem Mag - the others are all longer. The neck of the 8X58RD is below the neck of any belted magnums, so final neck thickness is the same for all (on the thick side), except that 338 gives the best start to the sizing process.

I was looking at the belted mag cases but never pursued it since I have about 60 cases right now. I think I do have some 338 lying around and a small lathe so will check it further.

I have been using 12grs. of Unique with the Lyman 160gr. Loverin boolit. seated just to the the second band to get it close to the rifling. shoot 1" to 1 1/2" at 100 yards if I do my part.

Have an older Lee single cavity Karabiner mold that drops at 238grs with my alloy. It does well with 4759 at 24grs. Has alot of drop at 200 yards! I shot under the backer when I went from 100 to 200 yards last week. the public range I shoot on has nothing in-between so will have to crank the tang sight up farther now that I have more ammo loaded.

Been thinking about taking this rifle on an elk hunt this fall. Have to see if I can find a good ambush spot up there once the fires are out!