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I just came across an article saying not to use petroleum based lubes or cleaning solutions to swab BP bores. Apparently, according to the article, petroleum mixes with BP and makes it harder to get clean and can cause more corrosion.
The article advocates using alcohol, hydrogen peroxide and Murpy’s Oil soap to swab the barrel and only natural based ingredients for lubes and greese cookies.
What do others think about this?
Thanks
first question - petroleum lubes - generally not a good idea - always exceptions to the rule but if we made this a rule ? not far off the mark.Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE
second question - cleaning - IMHOP - dont need the alcohol, peroxide or murphys oil soap - DO need the water that carries it into the bore
many will want to argue - thats ok ........
Lots of absolutes on the 'net that shouldn't be. Quite a few 'petroleum products' work just fine, even as lube ingredient. Paraffin for example. and as to cleaning or oiling, I do wipe my bore clean before shooting anyway... Swabbing bore between shots, water probably works best, so a non-issue. In the days, rangoon oil was actually advocated in the UK, and this was petroleum.Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE
Some petroleum based lubes work, some don't. Just use a proven BP lube and you'll be fine. There are lots of them out there, some commercial and some homemade. Regular beeswax/alox is not a good choice. As for barrel cleaning, straight water works great. I follow it up with Bore Tech Eliminator which gets a little more carbon out. Then store it with some Ed's Red to keep away rust.
Amen …. use a proven lube and cleaner. To me, nothing beats cleaning with soap and water.
Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizing agent. Go ahead and put it down your bore. I don't. Some say "But I rinse it out and oil everything" and I'll guarantee your threads are rusting.
Go catch a moose and use Moose Milk. Just be sure to catch the right one. :p
There are a lot of what my old Formulations Mentor used to call “Fruitcake Formulas” out there for gun cleaning—mixtures containing ingredients for no discernible reason, and from which no particular effect can be expected. Like the famous “Inspiration Soup” in the cheap eatery, where the cook puts “everything he’s got” into it.
However, if you have a blackpowder barrel that leads like crazy, the water will dissolve the salts in the BP fouling, the Murphy’s Soap will reduce the surface tension of the water and get it under the carbon and lead fouling, and the peroxide will oxidize the surface of the lead, hopefully causing it to lose its adhesion to the barrel steel. The alcohol will help the mixture dry quicker.
Most petroleum products are straight hydrocarbons, that are hydrophobic, which is why you coat a bore with them before putting the gun away. But even as they keep the barrel surface protected from moisture, they will also keep the soluble BP combustion products from dissolving and coming out of the barrel easily, requiring more elbow grease for a proper cleaning. Ideally you want hydrophilic products for BP lubes: fatty esters, alcohols, glycerides and other “organic”-type stuff that attracts water and keeps the fouling soft and easy to remove. A cleaning solution should likewise have water to dissolve the salts and maybe a soluble oil to protect the steel when the water dries if you can’t get to a full cleaning and oiling right away. Of course, drying and oiling, with a hydrocarbon, is the last step before storing the gun.
I use the water based cleaners for BP also usually Ballistol mixed 20 parts water to 1 part ballistol. This does okay on any lead deposits but if lead is stubborn I may after the ballistol use some shooters choice kroil oil mix to remove it. Ive found BP is easier to clean than most smokeless jacketed combos. For range cleaning wiping try windex with vinegar it removes fouling quick and easy.
A lot of information posted about shooting and loading blackpowder is repeated by what I call cockatoo's, they repeat what the read without ever using or doing it.
My favorite lube is or has petroleum products in it like Vaseline, Ozokerite wax mixed with Tallow. For the front stuffers I use straight vaseline for patch lube and I have not found anything that works as well as it does to let me shoot a whole match without having to swab the bore. Vaseline has been used with black powder since it was invented in the 1870's and it was also used by Pope from what I have read in his writings. It has never tarred up my bores since the 50's that I been using it. Cleaning the rifles just plain old water and maybe a little Murphy in it and dry patches before oiling the bore and wiping down the outside. hydrogen peroxide and Vinegar is the last thing I would put down my bore, you might just as well used battery acid.
I also save the patches I use to wipe lube off the bases of bullets. I keep them sealed in a snack bag. After cleaning and drying the bore, I use one to protect the bore. A couple passes with the bullet lube impregnated patch then a dry clean patch to even it out. This hangs better than most oils over time, and theres little chance of incompatable oils mixing
I like the Murphy's oil in my cleaning water as it makes the water "oily" and it keeps down rust when the cleaning water gets into areas that don't get wiped off. Works for me.
I remember hearing that before locktite was invented, gunsmiths would put a drop of hydrogen peroxide on the threads of mounting screws for scopes. It would cause them to rust and not get loose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toymaker
https://photos.imageevent.com/cas696...9_front200.jpg
My BP cleaner of choice.
I learned 30 plus years ago with my muzzle loaders how much better non petroleum was than petroleum based lubes/oils/cleaners. Wish I'd learned sooner.
GATO FEO LUBE
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by weight, double boiler melted ...
1 part mutton tallow (dixie gun works)
1 part paraffin canning wax (gulf)
1/2 part filtered beeswax
"but wait! isn't paraffin canning wax a dreaded petroleum product?"
a chemist provided what seems a plausible answer:
PURE canning paraffin lacks the hydrocarbons found in other petroleum products.
apparently, these hydrocarbons are the offenders with black powder guns.
Hey, I've heard of that stuff.
I bet it works real well.[emoji3][emoji1787][emoji28]
Why mix the two different waxes? Also paraffin wax has a much lower flash point than beeswax.
Everything you want/need/whatever to know about Gato Feo #1 Bullet Lube
Gato Feo (aka "ugly cat") is a home made lube for all manner of bullets and patching. i use it as a lube for cloth patch strips for muzzleloaders and as a dip or pan lube for grease groove bpcr/bptr bullets for cartridge guns. it is a superb lube that rivals the best, if not even better. there are three ingredients, all are easy to acquire. gato feo is an old 19th century formula for bullet lube, as researched and compiled by "mr. gato feo". the complete story is long winded and at the bottom of this post, if need be read.
GATO FEO LUBE
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by weight, double boiler melted ...
1 part mutton tallow (purchased in a 1lb tub online at dixie gun works www.dixiegunworks.com ) - NO LONGER AVAILABLE but DGW tells me they will be offering by next year
1 part pure paraffin canning wax (i use gulf wax brand, purchased online - do a google search for "gulf wax", there are many vendors)
1/2 part filtered PURE beeswax (local or purchased online - lots of vendors)
since the mutton tallow comes in a 1lb container, i add a pound (1 carton) of gulf wax and weigh out a 1/2lb of beeswax, to make 2-1/2lbs of gato feo lube. plenty of lube for a whole year or more of shooting both muzzleloaders and cartridge guns. but if a smaller amount of the lube is needed, just weigh out smaller quantities of each ingredient.
double boiler melted - half fill a large pot with plain water, put on a stove, put a smaller pot or large coffee can filled with the gato feo ingredients, turn on the heat. stir often. when fully melted and mixed, pour the gato feo into a large milk/juice carton. allow to cool and harden. peel off the carton and cut the block of wax into chunks - it will be just the right consistency for rubbing into muzzleloader patch strips, and then heat gunning into the weave (as shown in the above video).
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Everything You'd Ever Wanna Know About Gato Feo #1 Lube - by Mr. Gato Feo
About 1998 I began posting a 19th century bullet lubricant recipe that, when assembled with very specific ingredients, works exceedingly well with black powder. It must be made, as no one offers it commercially.
Within a year of my posting it with ingredients I specified, someone else named the recipe after me: “Gatofeo No. 1 Lubricant.”
“Gatofeo” means “ugly cat” in Spanish – and I’ve been grinning like a drunken Cheshire at the honor.
The recipe I posted – when made with the specific ingredients I list below -- equals or exceedss SPG, Lyman Black Powder Gold or other commercially made black powder lubricants and is cheaper to make than buying the commercial stuff.
Many have attested to its excellence on other message boards, particularly when soaked into 100% wool felt wads for use in cap and ball revolvers. It’s also a good bullet, patch and shotgun wad lubricant with black powder.
The recipe is:
1 part mutton tallow. I buy mine from Dixie Gun Works, which offers it again after months of unavailability. This is the toughest ingredient to find, but worth the search. There’s something almost magical about mutton tallow. It doesn’t go rancid and it really keeps black powder fouling to a minimum.
1 part canning paraffin -- the same paraffin used to seal preserves in jars, sold at the grocery store in 1 lb. packages containing four slabs. Gulf is a common brand. Hardware stores with canning sections have it too.
1/2 part real beeswax -- Beware of today's toilet seals, which are not real beeswax but petroleum-based. Get real beeswax, not the synthetic stuff. Though hobby shops may carry small cakes of beeswax, it’s expensive. Your best bet to find it will be at “Mountain Man” Rendezvous, Renaissance Fairs and from local beekeepers. Check the net for reasonably priced beeswax. I’ve also seen it offered occasionally, at a good price, on Ebay. Can’t find a local beekeeper? Call your county extension office in the government pages; they’ll have a handle on who rides herd on bees in your area. Toilet seals haven’t been made from real beeswax for at least 10 years, near as I can tell, and perhaps much longer. Check the label, if it doesn’t say “beeswax” it’s almost certainly synthetic and should be avoided.
All parts are by weight, not volume!
I measure out 200/200/100 grams on a kitchen scale, toss the ingredients into a wide mouth Mason jar, and set the jar in 3 or four inches of boiling water for a double-boiler effect to melt it. When thoroughly melted, mix well with a clean stick or disposable chopstick, then allow to cool at room temperature. (rfd note: when melted and mixed, i pour the hot lube liquid into a cleaned out milk or juice carton - when solidified, peel back the carton and extract the large block of gato feo, cut into usable cakes with a knife).
Do not try to hasten cooling by placing the jar in the refrigerator, or the ingredients may separate.
The result is a medium hard lubricant that keeps black powder fouling soft and eliminates or reduces leading. No refrigeration is needed to store this lubricant; just tighten the lid on the jar and place it in a cool, dry place.
I have lubricant I made in 2002 that is still like-new, stored in a tightly sealed jar. Mutton tallow does not go rancid like other natural fats, or at least not as quickly. The mutton tallow I have on hand was purchased in 1998; it’s still good.
The above recipe is not quite invented by me. I found the ratios in a very old factory recipe that listed only “tallow, paraffin and beeswax.”
The Gatofeo No. 1 lubricant calls for very specific ingredients: mutton tallow, canning paraffin and real beeswax. Any deviation from these three specific ingredients results in an inferior lubricant.
Let me restate: Do NOT substitute lard, Crisco, old candles, deer tallow, bacon grease, bear fat, vaseline, synthetic beeswax or anything else – it won’t be as good as these three in combination. I know, because I’ve made small batches of variants and others have tried other ingredients, reporting back that the lubricant worked okay, but not as well.
To lubricate pistol and rifle wads or patches, melt a little lubricant in a tuna or cat food can at a very low temperature on the stove. Add the wads. Two tablespoons of lubricant will easily lubricate 100 .44-caliber wads. Stir the wads until they soak up plenty of lubricant.
Turn off the stove and remove the can. Allow the lubricated wads to cool to room temperature. Snap a plastic pet food top (sold in the pet food aisle) over the can.
Write .44 Greased Wads (or whatever) on the side of the can with a wide marker. Store the can in a cool, dry place. You can easily bring the can to the range in your bag. When you get low on greased wads, simply place the can on the stove at very low heat, add more wads and lubricant, and recharge your stock.
The cans stack on top of each other on the shelf. The plastic lid keeps out dust and critters, and holds in the lubricant’s moisture. It’s a quick, easy, transportable system to make and use the greased felt wads. The same system can be used for unlubricated wads, small parts, balls, conical bullets or whatever you need to organize.
Plastic, pet food lids are inexpensive. Check a Dollar Store or its equivalent for a good price.
Smaller quantities of greased wads are easily carried in Altoid sour candy tins or shoe polish tins. Both types have indents or keys to open the lid easily with greasy fingers, and that’s important. Trying to pry open a greasy lid with greasy fingers, without some lever or side-indent, is maddening.
Hinged tins are not as good, because moisture escapes around the cutout for the hinges. The Altoids sour candy or shoe polish tins seal tightly.
Zip-Loc bags are also good for holding small amounts of wads (greased or dry) for the range but I most like the cans. They seal tighter and resist damage to their contents.
Gatofeo No. 1 Lubricant is good for a variety of black powder applications. I also use it for heeled bullets in my Marlin Model 1892 in .32 Long Colt caliber, over small charges of smokeless powder, and in my .44-40 rifle bullets over black powder or smokeless powder.
Give Gatofeo No. 1 Lubricant a try. I haven’t found anything better for lubricating the felt wads and Lee conical bullets in my cap and ball revolvers.
(rfd note for muzzleloaders: rub a cake of gato feo into yer patch material on both sides, then heat gun the lube into the weave on both sides, roll up the strips or cut into squares, a Superior lead ball patch lube that's also excellent for swabbing the bore when afield if need be, too.
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I guess I didn't mention an aspect of canning paraffin in this post. Truth is, I've been writing about the wonders of what is now called Gatofeo No. 1 Lubricant for about eight or nine years, and I've written various versions of the same post. I guess I left out the explanation concerning canning paraffin.
Yes, canning paraffin is a petroleum product, but it's also pure paraffin. There are no scents, unrelated oils, glitter, etc. such as are found in decorative or scented candles. It's pure, and that' why I specify it.
When I first began using canning paraffin, I too wondered why it didn't create the tarry fouling when used with black powder, as other petroleum products do. Fact is, I posed this question in various message boards years ago.
A chemist provided what seems a plausible answer: Canning paraffin lacks the hydrocarbons found in other petroleum products. Apaprently, these hydrocarbons are the offender.
I'm no chemist, and I don't have access to a lab that could test for the presence of hydrocarbons, so I remain uncertain if what he said is true, opinion or S.W.A.G.
All I know is that canning paraffin -- the same translucent stuff that is melted and poured into the open mouths of preserve jars, does not create the hard, tarry fouling I typically find with other petroleum products (automotive grease, transmission fluid, rifle grease, lithium grease, etc.).
The natural greases (animal and vegetable in origin) also dissolve more easily in soapy water during cleaning. Petroleum grease resists dissolving and tends to float around in the water as tiny clumps, often sticking to the steel surfaces of guns and requiring additional cleaning.
Canning paraffin works. I can't explain it. The original 19th century factory recipe called for "paraffin" and that was the only description. There are different types of paraffin, but I chose canning paraffin for its purity and availability. Luckily, it worked just fine and I didn't have to search for a more esoteric paraffin.
Perhaps it lacks the hydrocarbons that are claimed to be the culprit. Perhaps not. But I do know that canning paraffin is the best paraffin I've found and it doesn't create a hard, tarry fouling when used with black powder.
I've made other variations of Gatofeo No. 1 Lubricant with substited ingredients, including old candles, and the resulting lubricant is not as good.
It's kinda like the ghost I witnessed years ago: I saw it. I have no doubts. But I can't explain it.
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The old recipe I found only listed:
Tallow
Paraffin
Beeswax
No specifics beyond these were given.
The recipe was originally used by factories for bullets that were outside lubricated, as found on heeled bullets. The only heeled bullets loaded by factories today are the .22 Short, Long and Long Rifle, and the .32 Short Colt (occasionally loaded by Winchester).
I used the above recipe and assembled it with mutton tallow, canning paraffin and beeswax because it's what I had on hand when I found the old recipe.
I have a Marlin Model 1892 rifle that uses heeled bullets, which I cast myself. After using the lubricant with .32 Long Colt reloads, I decided to try it with felt wads for my cap and ball revolvers, and patches for my CVA Mountain Rifle in .50 caliber.
Doing so, I was impressed with the old recipe assembled with mutton tallow, canning paraffin and beeswax. I've also used it with black powder loads and lead bullets in my .44-40 and .45-70 rifles, as well as .45 Long Colt revolver.
I used very specific ingredients, but didn't change the ratio of 10/10/5 parts.
I first posted the recipe -- with mutton tallow, canning paraffin and beeswax -- about 1999 or 2000 on many message boards. Shortly after posting it, someone dubbed it "Gatofeo No. 1 Lubricant" and the name stuck.
Did the old factory recipe specify liquid or solid paraffin? I don't know. I suspect it was solid, because the lubricant must be sticky and solid, to stick to the bare, smooth lead of an outside-lubricated bullet not protected by the case. Only a very small portion of the bullet is inside the case -- the heel -- the rest of it is exposed to grit and lubricant wear-off while carried in pockets and game bags.
Modern .22 rimfire lubricant that covers the bullet is much harder and tenacious than the old factory recipe I found.
I suspect it's entirely wax of some type, with no grease or beeswax.
From what I've observed -- tiny teats on the point of the lead .22 bullet -- it's applied by dipping the completed cartridge upside down in melted wax up to where the bullet meets the brass case. Dipping in melted lubricant was the old method and is evidently still used today.
I know of liquid paraffin used for lamp fuel, but don't believe I've ever seen it. Perhaps I simply haven't recognized it.
Interestingly, one muzzleloading outfitter's site claims:
WARNING: Paraffin and other petroleum products can cause "Cook offs". It is neither fun nor healthy to have your musket unexpectedly fire while you are loading.
This is the first warning of this type I've seen, and I've been using black powder for nearly 40 years. I don't understand how a "cook-off" can be generated by paraffin. Does he mean it creates longer-lasting embers?
The age-old definition of "cook-off" means that the gun metal becomes so hot that the powder is ignited by this heat. This is a common problem in machine guns, and perhaps semi-autos fired quickly with a great deal of ammo, but in a black powder rifle?
The owner of the site clearly has a great deal of experience in black powder shooting, but i have to doubt this assertion. I've yet to hear of anyone experiencing unexpected ignition by using petroleum products. I and others have learned that most petroleum products, when used with black powder, create a hard, tarry fouling. Of this there is little doubt.
Canning paraffin lacks this characteristic. A chemist wrote me long ago that canning paraffin lacks the hydrocarbons that petroleum greases and oils contain. I don't know about this; I'm not a chemist, petroleum engineer or geologist. However, I DO know that I don't experience the hard, tarry fouling when using canning paraffin.
Whatever it lacks or possesses, it's clearly different from other petroleum products.
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The source of Gatofeo No. 1 Bullet Lubricant recipe comes from a 1943 American Rifleman magazine article on bullet lubrication. The recipe was listed as a factory lubricant for outside-lubricated bullets. That recipe was:
10 pounds Tallow
10 pounds Paraffin
5 pounds Beeswax
I'd had very good experience with mutton tallow, so I used that. I wanted the purest paraffin I could find. Candles often have scents and "dripless" ingredients added, so I used canning paraffin. I ensured that I used real beeswax, not the phony petroleum product used for toilet seals the past 15 or more years.
In short, I took pains to use the finest ingredients I could find, based on their purity or my experience with them.
The result was a lubricant that delighted me with its usefulness for bullets, patches and wads (revolver and shotgun) in black powder and smokeless firearms, economy and effectiveness.
The 1943 article notes that the recipes are very old factory concoctions. Considering that outside lubricated bullets have been produced by factories since the 1850s, this recipe could very well go back that far.
Hence, my statement that the Gatofeo No. 1 Bullet Lubricant recipe dates to the 19th century.
Paraffin vs. petroleum product ....
I've tried numerous petroleum products with black powder since my first cap and ball revolver in 1970. None of them I've found very good. Far better has been natural oils and greases based on animals or plants.
Yet, canning paraffin is an exception. At least when blended with mutton tallow and beeswax, as found in the GF No. 1 recipe.
A chemist years ago told me (online) that canning paraffin lacks the hydrocarbons that other petroleum products contain.
I don't know about that, but I do know that canning paraffin does not promote the hard, tar-like fouling that other petroleum products do, when used with black powder.
I use Gatofeo No. 1 Bullet Lubricant (named by someone else years ago, not me) for a variety of black powder applications.
It's very similar to commercially sold SPG Lubricant, but much cheaper because it's only available as a homemade product. I can tell no difference in performance between the two.
Gatofeo No. 1 Bullet Lubricant is also good for lubricating bullets at 1,200 feet per second, or less. I use it in .38 Special and mid-power .357 Magnum loads with the same 158 gr. bullet.
Brewng a batch of Gatofeo No. 1 Bullet Lubricant is a bit of a pain, because it requires finding very specific ingredients, but a little goes a long way and it's ultimately worth it.
This lube is very interesting to me. What I don’t understand is why is the small amount of beeswax in it? Or why not use beeswax to complete the paraffin? Is the paraffin needed? Or is it just cheaper?
dunno and don't care. i ain't messin' with what quite well works for me for over a decade for bpcr rifle greasers to handguns to muzzleloader patches. since going bpcr PPB, and hi-tek for pistols, i only use GF#1 for muzzleloader patching.Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE
"The Gatofeo No. 1 lubricant calls for very specific ingredients: mutton tallow, canning paraffin and real beeswax. Any deviation from these three specific ingredients results in an inferior lubricant."