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Bye for now !
Ajay,
These look great.
I have a couple of quick questions. Are these intended only for rifled barrels or are designed for smoothbore use also?
The $19.00 mold, I would imagine this is a Lee product, if so which mold is it.
I wish you good luck and look foward to your updates on this product.
jmsj
Bye for now !
Bye for now !
Very interesting
Bye for now !
Greetings,
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...erslipping.jpg
Lyman 525 load that had powder seeping through the wad and when fired:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/e...adwadscopy.jpg
Ajay
Video Memories
VdoMemorie-Blazing Sabots
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com
Bye for now !
Bye for now !
Bye for now !
Bye for now !
As fast as they will go without blowing a group or dangerous in the summer heat is what I would want.
Go ahead harbor the evil elements here.
Please participate with your feedback right here on this post as it will help me a great deal and not through PM!
Thank you.
Ajay
Video Memories
VdoMemorie's-Blazing Sabots
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com
If you can get these to group as good or better than factory at factory speeds, you are going to sell out fast. I have used the Lyman and Lee slugs an never could get them to go very fast. The Lymans were easy to get to group, not so for the Lee. I know part of the problem was wad seperation from the slug.
Are the sabots you have scored on the petals by the base? I think this would help to get faster seperation from the slug. I see they are tearing, thats why I ask.
Go ahead harbor the evil elements here.
Go ahead harbor the evil elements here.
A few thoughts for you. I've been working with my NEF 20ga USH, BRI Multihulls, AA 2495 powder and 550 thru 668 gr 0.625" bullets. With any pressure over about 14.5KPSI the hull obturates into the ejector slot cutout and sticks in the chamber...DOESN'T MATTER WHAT POWDER I use. Using RMC brass cases I could go to 20KPSI and higher without ANY pressure or case sticking. I ordered a batch of Fiocci cases to try to see if the brass base will handle a bit more pressure.
AA2495 is what QL shows to be the best for the total pressure/velo and also for the pressure/time curve....the AA runs from .8 to 1.0ms to max pressure/bullet travel time while the other shotgun powders run from ~.4 to .6ms. I'm using one PGS and one 3/8" - 1/2" felt filler wad with 80-105 gr AA2495 at ~55 to 70% fill ratio, and getting velos from 1550fs to 1850fs.
I found that Trail boss is an excellent powder also, as it has a high bulk density and gives similar high fill rates at 1/3 to 1/2 less power amountsthan AA2495 and produces about 2-400fs less velos, but still in the 1200-1400fs range...and a LOT less recoil.
Ed Hubel has lots of information on the different brands of cases and the pressures they will handle in 20 and 12 ga. So far I've ran into recoil problems well before running into pressure problems with RMC/50 BMG brass cases in BOTH my NEF 20 and 12 ga USH's..
You might check out Ed's data on Accurate Arms 12GaFH link if you haven't already.
I would pull the barrel or at least unscrew the barrel nut to relieve the pressure, then maybe you can get the bolt open...you might have setback the bolt lugs or welded them to the receiver face from the sound of it. Those loads are showing lots of pressure signs and they have been telling you a story all along.
I would stop mucking about until you identify whatever it is causing the pressure indications...some of those shotgun powders have a very fast pressure spike which means you might need to go to a slower burning powder...or it could be the sabot causing the ruckus...you have to count the weight of ALL THE PAYLOAD...bullet/shot AND wads...when considering the powder amount.
Go ahead harbor the evil elements here.
Pull the barrel.
Not to belabor but I've been building rifles including Savages since the early 60's and I've stuck a few bolts in most brands AND Savages. With the Savage nut, pulling a barrel is so easy and that amount of strain relief might be enough to let the bolt come loose.
I'm guessing you have some major brass/plastic extrusion going on at the chamber/boltface junction maybe back into the firing pin hole, maybe into the ejector button hole and even into the extractor slot, all of which will cause a ruckus. If that's the case...worse case scenario...you will have to pull the barrel.
WD40 is for rust removal more than anything else but it might work if it just needs some lubing up...you might also dribble in some Kroil if you have it.
DON'T hammer or use a pipe wrench or snipe on the bolt handle...they are stout but also sometimes a bit brittle and can break. Now might be the time to swap in one of those fancy bolt handles.
Most shotgun shell casings are rated not much more than 16KPSI tops as most loads, even the magnum hotties run below 14KPSI.
I can get away with a little more pressure, relatively speaking and not overpressure, in my Mossy's and Rems than I can get away with in my NEF's. Many loads that I developed in those shotguns which ejected without problems would lock up the NEF'S using plastic cases of several brands...That ejector is not supported so the brass just bulges out there, pushing down the ejector and locking everything up. It is an EXCELLENT "high pressure and stop it now" indicator...even on my rifle/pistol NEF's.
The Rem "NITRO" once fired cases worked better than the BRI Multihull in the 12 ga also and Win AA's were like the Energizer Bunny...they just kept going and going and going...as long as I kept the pressure below 16KPSI even the primer pockets stayed relatively tight, but it only took ONE "high" pressure load to ruin a plastic case.
Go ahead harbor the evil elements here.
Go ahead harbor the evil elements here.
The Savage bolthead does have a small amount of "slop", basically "headspace" which gives it it's higher level of accuracy because it can "fit" itself to the cartridge head, but if the pressure has taken up that "wiggle room" by expanding the case then all bets are off.
Polishing a chamber to a high gloss actuall will exacerbate the sticking problem in many cases. Whenever I cut a chamber with a carbide reamer or a very sharp reamer I get a beautiful chamber slick as glass and shiney as a diamond, but they always seem to start locking up well before they should, so I knock off the shine with 320 grit...seems to work on some and not on others...go figure.
If you're going to continue playing with the Savage, I would invest in a nut wrench and make a receiver holder...I made my "holder" out of scrap steel strap, 3/4" bolts, a couple of springs using a drill press. I will post a pic so you can see how easy and simple. Midway has the nut
wrench. I have 2 LA and 2 SA Savage receivers and about 2 dozen barrels so I'm swapping things around constantly.
I would have a 210 or a 220 by now if not for being broke most of the time and spending on other toys and playing...hahahahahahah...I keep looking for a cheap one, tho.
Today I'm picking up my run of 300-700 gr 20 ga/.625 cal bullets and my mold so I can modify the nose a bit and cast a few.
You might take a look at a semi-wadcutter nose profile...that edge makes for an excellent "meat cutter"...just like they did for punching paper...cut pointed slugs also do a good job as "cookie cutters".
Go ahead harbor the evil elements here.
The Federal 2 3/4 clear hull on sale for $13.50 if you buy 5 bags primed with
Fed 209 A magnum primer, you cant beat this deal
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Federa ... ?EM120428A
Ajay
Video Memories
VdoMemories Blazing Sabot!
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com
Go ahead harbor the evil elements here.
Are you using any internal pressure measuring instruments (crusher guns, strain gauges)to come up with the loads you are using? In numerous shotshell loading manuals I have seen reference that it is not possible to determine chamber pressures by reading primers or head expansion. Yet that appears to be exactly what you are doing, or trying to do. After tying that bolt gun up I would tend to think you are treading on very thin ice with your experiments.
Go ahead harbor the evil elements here.
It is NOT THE RIFLE'S STRENGTH OR THE BOLT'S STRENGTH YOU NEED TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT...The Savage will handle as much or more pressure than any other rifle brand. I think you need to step back and re-evaluate what and how you are going about doing your thing. Some of your statements are leading me to believe you might need more study.
It is the fact that a shotgun case is only designed to handle "normal" shotgun pressures and you EXCEEDED those pressure limits that caused the ruckus...take a look at the LYMAN #4 shotshell reloading handbook and check out the pressures...I didn't find any over 14,000 PSI...I'm guessing that load was WELL above 16KPSI. Ed has posted what he thinks about various shotgun cases and what he thinks is enough pressure. Check out the Accurate Reloading 12GaFH thread.
Plastic shotwads, types and brands of shotwads, nitro overpowder wads and roll crimps all can affect the pressure
What you did was exceed the "normal" operating pressures for the case and it just did what cases do when that happens...it RUPTURED. Trying to read pressure from a primer is NOT the way to go...the cases have been telling you all along that you were overpressure but you haven't been listening.
If you want to continue doing things the way you are I would suggest calling RMC and ordering some brass cases...they are expensive but they won't rupture unless you do something really out of whack.
Go ahead harbor the evil elements here.
Your threats to ban me will bear no fruits.
I've been following this thread with great interest and would like to say that you are very brave and generous in sharing your data and pictures. Just a word of CAUTION . Way back in the early 70's I did a lot of trap shooting and I was in a shootoff with a young man who had loaded up some special shells for the longer Range. I forget the exact load but it split his receiver on a 1100. The hull was split but the primer showed no signs of pressure. Over the years I've seen several signs of high pressure loads in shotshells with the case showing the signs before the primer.
Go ahead harbor the evil elements here.
Your threats to ban me will bear no fruits.
Federal 209 primers have always been considered the hottest of the standard primers. Fiochi hulls have a couple of differant base wads also.
I understand what you are trying to do, but suggest you might be going about it slightly off center. I have no problem with WHAT you are doing...it's the WAY you are doing it. I'm also not whizzing on your leg in any mannor shape or form...just suggesting you need to re-evaluate your procedures.
Reinventing the wheel is always a good thing but a lot of what you are doing has been done already and many of the "best" powders are known and readily available so in effect you are wasting YOUR VALUABLE TIME AND COMPONENTS retesting those powders...it would behoove you to start with the know "good" powders then work with the components you want to develop in the way YOU want to develop them.
Anytime you change ANY component in ANY way all the admonitions in EVERY RELOADING manual(everyone that has come down the pike in the last 40 years) has stated, catagorically, DROP THE LOAD AT LEAST 10%...and normal load development dictates changing only ONE component at a time. The only way to evaluate what each change does is to be systematic.
I've done what you're doing already and so have many others..this is nothing more than wildcatting with a shotgun instead of a rifle... but I also started with the information Ed Hubel and others posted using at least a dozen different weights of slugs, in 4 different 12 ga shotguns, starting 10-15% BELOW what Ed had show was safe then working up slowly. I also worked with roll crimps, star crimps and also a heat crimper I developed from one I found online for 410 shotguns, and also two chrono's, many of the available at that time shot wads and slugs, both of which have seen huge gains in number, shape and availability in the past few years. I can guarantee I could see AND feel the difference a change in components produced.
As far as the primer differences are concerned you can research that online...comparisons have been done.
Online friends are no different than true life friends...they will love you to death until you're no longer useful then they will slice you up and BBQ you and say what a nice guy you "were" as they are munching on a BBQ'ed Ajay steak. Sometimes that guy that will stick a icepick in your eye just for kicks will tell you the real truth just because he thinks it will whizz you off. Think of the Bay of Pigs fiasco...all the yes men were bobbing there heads up anhd down at Kennedy instead of grabbing him by his short hairs and telling him to get his head up out of his backside...we almost got into WWIII over that.
JUST BE CAREFUL and really think over EACH load BEFORE you pull the trigger. There are no excuses in this game...if you mess up you can't blame anyone but yourself and excuses and blame WON'T bring back a mutilated hand, destroyed eye or the dead...period.
The Fiocchi base cup metal seems softer and cuts easier
when I section compared to other cases.
I never loaded any with heavy slow powder loads.
I've never had the back of Rem/Win/Fed cases flow
into Savage extractor cuts like in the picture,
With 15k psi loads in slow powder.
I've had cases dimple a little just ahead
of rims on NEF into the singleshot extractor area.
Now Fiocchi may not do that using slow powders,
like Steel and 4759. If it was me I'd take out
broken extractor and test that way, pushing out
cases after bolt opened with dowell. Leave it that way
for testing. I did lot of real hairy testing that way.
I'd like to see same slug/sabot in Fiocchi
with full load of steel and see if base flows.
You can't hurt the locking lugs on the savage.
Now the Fiocchi inside the base I think is fine, as it is
perfectly level with no recess around the primer, like
some other cases.
Some FED primers for reloading are more rounded
and little harder than REM primers and don't react
to showing flattening as reliably as REM STS primers
I like.... For 12 on down I use REM STS primers.
In guns without super strong firing pins the REMs
test out on my tests here, as good as the FED Mag ones.
I even found that the FED 239s I save out of
10 and 12ga 3.5" cases for 8ga use, seem a little softer
than FED 209s for reloading. Same with REM primers in
8ga cases. Ed
Go ahead harbor the evil elements here.
Your threats to ban me will bear no fruits.
Go ahead harbor the evil elements here.
Your threats to ban me will bear no fruits.
No more !
If they are federal 209's they are about the same strength as Winchester 209's, but if they are federal 209A's you definitely don't want to to sub them for any other 209 primer.Quote:
There is a good chance the Fed 209 primer is much more hotter than Win.209
Go ahead harbor the evil elements here.
Your threats to ban me will bear no fruits.
No more !