Does anyone still make a good USA made muzzleloader?

I am not a traditionalist, and am not biased for inline vs other types of ignition muzzle loaders. My main purpose is deer hunting, but I shoot them year round. I used to use an H&R huntsman, before I bought my current T/C Impact. Both are fine, USA made muzzleloaders that you can buy for a good price. I also have a Knight TK2000 12 gauge that I love. I'm interested in another rifle, but with a slower twist. I have no interest in shooting sabot's at all. Thompson Center still has a bunch of inline, fast twist guns, but nothing else. I'd be all over a Knight bighorn if they came with a 1:48 twist barrel. Other than that it's a bunch of imported guns until you get to the custom guns. Even if I looked past the fact its imported, Traditions wants $300 for their deer hunter? Not a chance! Is there any muzzle loader, of any kind, slower twist barrel, made in USA (or equivalent, you know the ones), and is priced reasonably?

Mega ,
With the price point you set I would think your best route would be a used rifle from a gun show .
Most muzzleloaders around here have taken a big hit .
Seems like only black plastic sells . If it's a 50 cal. I would go with a 60 or higher twist .
Longer sweet spot when developing a load .
Just my .02
Steve

You can sometimes find used T/C traditional guns worth the money. White makes muzzleloaders from traditional to inlines...mostly custom, sometimes they have a "blemished" section that can result in huge savings...might be worth a look.

I have read early knight mk85 were as slow as 1in48 and as production went on the were 1in28. I don't know this for a fact. The mk85 were top notch stuff; timney trigger, B&C stock and GM barrels.

I've had my eye on the T/C hawken, too bad they don't still make it. I just took a quick look through white rifles, they might be an option in the future. I'm not looking for dirt cheap, but I'm not paying $300 for an import. I'd consider $600 if I liked it. The thing that scares me about used side locks is that there is almost no way to check out the bore. You can kind of get a flashlight in there, but you don't get to really look over a gun in a gun show setting. Private sale is better, but is kind of rare to see one. A gun shop would be best, but I simply have never seen one for sale. I live right by track of the wolf, and all their stuff is high priced, although I keep drooling over some of those sxs percussion shotguns.

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Originally Posted by megasupermagnum

The thing that scares me about used side locks is that there is almost no way to check out the bore. You can kind of get a flashlight in there, but you don't get to really look over a gun in a gun show setting.

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https://www.buffaloarms.com/muzzlelo...-larger-rmc616

Pick up one of these if you are going to shop for used muzzleloaders. Drop it in and take a gander. Works like a charm.

That tool looks handy. Thanks for the tip!

I'd go with the gun show route, pawn shops, too. Find an acceptable smokepole from all outward appearances and then send it to Bob Hoyt to make it whatever caliber & rate of twist you want. The man makes magic. If the gun is OK at some lower price, another $150 ?? for the barrel work will give you a new gun -- more or less. Best of all you choose the caliber and twist rate for the type of boolit you want.

Mega, Try williams gun sights website in there used gun section they have a couple of pages of used muzzleloaders. Last time I looked they had several knights & older T/C's and there pricing is pretty reasonable. I have gotten a couple of hard to find rifles from them in the past.

Nothing wrong with the traditions sidelocks, that's all I own now days. Building another kit right now.

TVM. Matt's rifles aren't $300 but they're excellent. I'd buy one of his before I'd ever spend the money on a Traditions. There's others out there but the names evade me at the moment.

If you want US made that's fine but there is absolutely nothing wrong with an Italian Invest Arms import.

You don't need to buy an expensive drop in light. Just go to the fishing section and buy either a yellow or green float light. They will fit down to .32 cal.

I have a couple of used T/C hawkens in 50 Caliber starting at 350. In like new condition but real quality is costly parts for a good custom gun are $700 or so. Cheap is as cheap does.

Do a Google Search on Doc White. Or go to gunbroker.com and do a search on used White muzzleloaders. Most of em' were built to shoot conicals.

Don't bother with Lyman, CVA or any low budget traditionals, especially flintlocks...you will:[smilie=b:
If you can budget it try custom makers with a really great lock, L&R, siler etc. Take a look at Dixon's Muzzleloader shop in Kempton, PA, if you can ever make a trip there they can show you a whole new world of traditional muzzleloading. And yes, all American made! Bring money, maybe mortgage your home...:bigsmyl2:

" Does anyone still make a good USA made muzzleloader? "

absolutely, but nowhere near what yer looking to spend, for your shooting intentions.

i'll add - there is nothing at all wrong with some of the offshore trad muzzleloaders - IF you know which ones, and IF yer not looking for a zip gun. i have more than a few handmade onshore USA built trad muzzleloaders, but my .54 GPR is my go-to fun trad ml. it's all about knowing stuff ...

There is no reason not to know what the bore looks like on a used Muzzleloader these days. You can get a 7mm(.275") USB Endoscope for under $20.00 from amazon.
https://smile.amazon.com/Fantronics-...ds=bore+camera
It's not the highest resolution but for looking in the bore it is high enough. More money will get you smaller diameter and higher resolution.

Hope that helps.

Since we’re on the subject of bore lights, here’s a freebie. Take an empty .38 special case (nickel works best) and drop it into the bore upside down. Then shine a light in there. Works like a charm, amd you probably have an empty case and a flashlight already. For my money, you can’t beat a T/C. They don’t make them any more in sidehammer persuasion, but good used ones can be found.

Don’t overlook Pedersoli, either, they make fine rifles.

"Reasonable price" means what? Less than $500, less than $1000?

I stopped looking at "made in USA" many years ago. We made model airplane kits and shipped all over the world. If folks in those other countries said "I'll only buy made in the UK" or similar we would have lost a ton of sales. Spanish or Italian made guns are great for me, as are Brazilian, German, etc. I do like to support good companies, wherever they are in the world.

PS my last Dodge truck was made in Canada.

If <$1000 is reasonable, take a look at Pedersoli and Armi sport...not USA but easy to work with to improve. Old T/Cs are around and usually in the $500 range, easy to recrown and lap the bore if corroded. If <$5000 is reasonable consider one of the custom makers; Jim Chambers, Allen Martin and many others, if you go that route you'll never be disappointed. I have the last rifle Richard Mann made, completely unique and a pleasure to fire. If >$$$ is reasonable, well then God bless ya, Laddie![smilie=s:
I look at muzzle loaders as a base platform to start, then incrementally improve to get what you want, same with accessories but these poorly made cheapos (Lyman, CVA etc.) there is just nothing to work with, usually it's a chore just to get enough spark to get 50% flash in the pan.....lame.

Haunt other forums as well, picked up a TC Hawken for $200 a few years ago with a TC peep sight. Needed a new ramrod and replaced the peep with an original open sight and didn't look back. Local second hand shop has a new TC PA hunter for $400, and saw two Hawkens at a gun show Saturday, a 45 and a 50, for $350. Around here the inlines are the thing and prices on the traditional rifles are low. Have had several Traditions rifles over the years and they all shot well and killed deer just fine.

fwiw --- all the offshore trad ml's have patent breeches. the spanish guns (traditions and others) have breech plugs that are near impossible to remove, some of the pedersoli plugs are also in that category. investarms guns (lyman, DGW, cabelas, and other rebranders) have plugs that can be relatively easy to remove. there are some excellent reasons for the need to remove a breech plug without the need for a gunsmith.

my take on the investarms trad ml's, after owning, shooting, and working on literally dozens of them over the years, is that they are the better buy over the other offshore guns. the investarms working parts are at least good if not excellent, too. much of the issues with ANY of these guns comes from not knowing how to set them up, adjust the locks, and realize that all patent breeches require special attention. ALL the investarms trad ml's can be made to work reliably and consistently, including many multiple accurate shots without the need for fouling control. like most everything in life, it's all about The Knowledge - having it, not having it ... or better yet, always learning and acquiring it.

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Originally Posted by megasupermagnum

I am not a traditionalist, and am not biased for inline vs other types of ignition muzzle loaders. My main purpose is deer hunting, but I shoot them year round. I used to use an H&R huntsman, before I bought my current T/C Impact. Both are fine, USA made muzzleloaders that you can buy for a good price. I also have a Knight TK2000 12 gauge that I love. I'm interested in another rifle, but with a slower twist. I have no interest in shooting sabot's at all. Thompson Center still has a bunch of inline, fast twist guns, but nothing else. I'd be all over a Knight bighorn if they came with a 1:48 twist barrel. Other than that it's a bunch of imported guns until you get to the custom guns. Even if I looked past the fact its imported, Traditions wants $300 for their deer hunter? Not a chance! Is there any muzzle loader, of any kind, slower twist barrel, made in USA (or equivalent, you know the ones), and is priced reasonably?

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mega, there are tons of T/C rifles for sale. you may need to broaden your search theory. pawn shops, maw and paw gun shops, even flea markets.you can even look for a T/C rifle with a trash barrel and get it relined. Bobby Hoyt is top notch at it.

I figured I'd get some clash to my desire of Made in USA firearms. No point in trying to sway me, I'm set in my personal belief here. I am surprised at the whole price range thing. I'm not looking for a fancy replica like a Pedersoli, or other custom maker. They are what they are, and the cost is in the craftsmanship. I'm not looking for that. In the past week I have discovered a whole ton of side locks Thompson Center used to make, and I am most certainly interested in them. When the time comes to buy, that's probably the route I'll go. It is disappointing they are not made anymore. You guys must make more money than me, or at least value fancy stocks more than me, but in my eyes $1000 for a hunting muzzle loader is just unreasonable. It's a metal tube, a lock and a stock. I did state $600 as an absolute maximum, but I doubt I'd pay that much.

So the short answer to thread is that no, there are not any slow twist (1:48 or slower) guns made in USA anymore.

I will say I like the look of a cross between a modern and more traditional side lock. One that has stuck out for me is the T/C black mountain magnum. I really like the straight stock with very little drop at the heel, and a nice rubber butt pad. This is my opinion, nothing else, but I think the more traditional stock with ton of drop at the heel, and a tightly cupping butt pad (with metal plate) is ugly and shoots hard. I also hate the extra junk they add on to the trigger guards, although that can be cut off.

Anyway, my question was answered, and I learned a lot about older T/C muzzle loaders. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by megasupermagnum

I figured I'd get some clash to my desire of Made in USA firearms. No point in trying to sway me, I'm set in my personal belief here. I am surprised at the whole price range thing. I'm not looking for a fancy replica like a Pedersoli, or other custom maker. They are what they are, and the cost is in the craftsmanship. I'm not looking for that. In the past week I have discovered a whole ton of side locks Thompson Center used to make, and I am most certainly interested in them. When the time comes to buy, that's probably the route I'll go. It is disappointing they are not made anymore. You guys must make more money than me, or at least value fancy stocks more than me, but in my eyes $1000 for a hunting muzzle loader is just unreasonable. It's a metal tube, a lock and a stock. I did state $600 as an absolute maximum, but I doubt I'd pay that much.

So the short answer to thread is that no, there are not any slow twist (1:48 or slower) guns made in USA anymore.

I will say I like the look of a cross between a modern and more traditional side lock. One that has stuck out for me is the T/C black mountain magnum. I really like the straight stock with very little drop at the heel, and a nice rubber butt pad. This is my opinion, nothing else, but I think the more traditional stock with ton of drop at the heel, and a tightly cupping butt pad (with metal plate) is ugly and shoots hard. I also hate the extra junk they add on to the trigger guards, although that can be cut off.

Anyway, my question was answered, and I learned a lot about older T/C muzzle loaders. Thanks.

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Nowadays, parts for a good custom COST close to $1000.

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Originally Posted by 725

I'd go with the gun show route, pawn shops, too. Find an acceptable smokepole from all outward appearances and then send it to Bob Hoyt to make it whatever caliber & rate of twist you want. The man makes magic. If the gun is OK at some lower price, another $150 ?? for the barrel work will give you a new gun -- more or less. Best of all you choose the caliber and twist rate for the type of boolit you want.

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It sounds like 725 is right on the money with his suggestion. This sounds like the best of all worlds. Good luck.
Bob

or .... you could take yer chances on a jackie brown gun, built by him, in the USA, with USA parts, for typically $700-800 (sometimes even less). you could take yer chances, as i did when he built my .62 smoothbore ... pm me for more details if need be. other than that, you'd be very hard pressed to find what's in yer thread title for less, unless it was used and you really lucked out with a stupid cheap price. on the offshore side of the coin, you will not do wrong with a GPR or DGW kit gun for $500 or less - my GPR with bobby hoyt barrel makeover is a top notch shooter. good luck.

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Originally Posted by rfd

or .... you could take yer chances on a jackie brown gun, built by him, in the USA, with USA parts, for typically $700-800 (sometimes even less). you could take yer chances, as i did when he built my .62 smoothbore ... pm me for more details if need be. other than that, you'd be very hard pressed to find what's in yer thread title for less, unless it was used and you really lucked out with a stupid cheap price. on the offshore side of the coin, you will not do wrong with a GPR or DGW kit gun for $500 or less - my GPR with bobby hoyt barrel makeover is a top notch shooter. good luck.

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I would not recommend Jackie Brown to anyone.

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Originally Posted by waksupi

I would not recommend Jackie Brown to anyone.

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i totally agree rick, but with some serious reservations. there are ways of dealing with jackie where yer not gambling. depends not so much on jackie, but the buyer's circumstances and how the deal goes down. which means the buyer has a serious lack of funds and strong desire for a "decent" gun that's "made in the USA" rather than offshore. personally, rather than attempt the jackie route, i would recommend going with a particular offshore gun if money is that tight and yet the desire for a good trad ml is high.

What does the OP want to shoot? he mentions inlines, and even Whites, but wants a 48 twist. Do you plan to shoot big lead conicals, short lead, round balls.. What is your price range? is there a $300 dollar cap? I have recently seen several for sale to meet any one or two of these criteria, but no one gun really does it all well, outside very short range

don't forget traditional gun shops as some get in muzzle loaders and price them to move. don't think the outside of a good muzzle loader is representative of the bore. I once saw a tc big boar that had been rained on that previous owner didn't take care of bore was great price was even better and it shot great. Most good condition tc muzzle loaders can be had in these price ranges renegade in the 300's hawken 3-400, seneca 4-700 along with the cherokee in the same price range, big boar in good condition what the local market will bear. Years ago I stopped into a local gun shop that had a cherokee and a seneca that they wanted around 500 each they came home with me for 600 for the pair as they didn't deal in muzzle loaders and wanted them gone. Wished I still had them and maybe I do just haven't found them since I finally got a home and could have all my stuff in one place

You're pretty much out of luck for a US produced sidelock made of wood and steel. I might recommend a Jim Kibler kit. They come with everything done to them so a careful duffer could build a very nice one. They are the easiest kits - excluding the imported kits which are basically just a "reassemble". Plus, they are best quality parts. TVM also sells "almost done" kits that are similar to Jim's. Matt's kits are a little cheaper but you're still looking at under $1000 either way.