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Having read both Paul Matthews The Paper Jacket & Randy Wrights P.P. book...I am uncertain about usable unpatched bullet dia. for black. Mathews says unpatched slug can be .004" to .006" under bore dia. if not cleaning between shots...and right at bore dia. if cleaning after each shot. Wright says .009" to .010" under bore dia.? Has anyone used unpatched bore dia. bullets for black? Seems a thinner paper would be needed? Thanks!
It really depends on what you're going to do with the bullet. Target accuracy is generally the best when the bullet is patched to bore or ever so slightly over. Hunting and some highspeed gong matches then patching to a couple of thousands under bore is to be preferred, altho you can use larger bullets seated deeper in the case like with a greaser with some success.
I do know a few folks that use bore diameter slicks , and they are about equally split on thin paper and thick.
And as with all other things shooting the main thing is to find what works for you.
It also depends on what your rifle's chamber looks like. I have one rifle that can not use a bullet any bigger than .007" under bore diameter, and another that needs one about .001" over. (It has a long freebored throat, and shoots shotgun patterns with bullets under bore size) So, let your rifle decide.
-Nobade
another thing is to watch the paper patches that are fired. If your not getting confetti from first layer and heavy rifling marks on second then paper is to thick tough or bullet is obtrating enough for the proper fit
Nobade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobade
Please explain your understanding what freebore is. There is a lot of difference between freebore and different leads entering the throat.
The reason I ask this is from your statement "I have one rifle that can not use a bullet any bigger than .007" under bore diameter,"
Keith
I think it would need a carefully thought out wad and grease cookie combination to prevent gas cutting with bullets that fit so loosely.Quote:
Originally Posted by .22-10-45
CM
I think that the confusion is patched vs. unpatched size. In RSW's book he suggests a .440" to .441" diameter bullet for a .450" bore, however that is the unpatched size. He recommends the final diameter to be very close to bore diameter as we'd expect.
I've been using bullets of .444" for my .45-110 Shiloh and .45-110 C. Sharps, and .446" or .445" for most others. The paper is mostly 8 lb Seth Cole which is quite thin, maybe 0.0015" or so. In my C. Sharps .45-110 I've been using 9lb paper that I bought several years ago from Buffalo Arms. IIRC it's somewhere around 0.0022".
You'll get some small amount of paper stretch if you wet patch, so you can't quite add the paper thickness x4 to the bullet diameter. My bullets generally end up to be maybe 0.001" below to right at bore diameter depending on the bullet/paper combo. Surprisingly the 0.001" below bullets often shoot quite well.
One nifty trick I just started using is to patch a pin gauge and see how well it fit the bore. If you have a handful of the right size gauges you can figure out what size bullet you need pretty quickly, assuming you've got your paper.
Chris.
Wrapping paper on dtill bit shanks wI'll give you very good before-after measures. Plan on paper that wraps about as thick as the grooves are deep.
Gumlaker..I have used the pin gage trick for determining p.p. mould dia. This is what I have...back in the mid 90's, I had Tom Ballard make up an adjustable nose-pour .40 mould. I had given up on black years before..and this was made for smokeless. The slugs drop at .400 dia. Bore dia. as recommended by Mathews. I have since gone back to black, after trying out the Swiss powder...I never did get around to trying out smokeless P.P. in the .40 cal. So I have a patched soft lead bullet around .406-.408" dia. I also have a Corbin .400 reloading-press type reducing die. I lightly lubed bullet with a soft Beeswax based lube & ran it thru sizer. Patch is now very hard feeling and shiny. Dia. is right at .4025. unwraping patch..the dia. of slug is right at .394...interestly the same difference to bore as your .444... .006". Mathews also mentioned doing this..I am wondering if this will work?
By freebore I mean a cylindrical section between the end of the case mouth and the start of the rifling. Cut to groove diameter or a bit larger, to allow a certain amount of the bullet's parallel section to extend past the case mouth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Andersen
In my C.Sharps rifle, the chamber has about 3/8" of .460" parallel going into 2deg/side leade into the rifling. This chamber shoots amazingly well with grease groove bullets sized .459" and seated out to just touch the rifling when the cartridge is chambered. But no matter what I have tried, it is terrible with bullets patched to bore diameter. However, if I shoot .452" bullets patched up to .459" and seat them out like I do with grease groove ones, it works quite well.
My other rifle has a chamber cut with a reamer that only allows bullets patched up to bore diameter. The case can not be chambered with a bullet any bigger than .450" seated in it. The whole point is the cases never get resized, just cleaned and reloaded. In this one I use a .442" bullet and patch it to .449". There is no step at the end of the chamber, just a 7 deg/side bevel into the rifling. It shoots incredibly well as long as it is loaded properly. Bullets in this one are seated by hand and are only in the case about .100". Everything else sits out in the bore, self aligning like what you have in a muzzle loader. Of course loads in this one are a lot heavier - I can get 81gr. of powder in the case, and that is where it shoots the best. Kind of wish I had built it as a 45 2.4 instead, since it seems to want more power!
-Nobade
.22-10-45, I have never tried anything like that. I do size .446" bullets to 0.445" before wrapping though. If they are still greater than bore diameter they might still be hard to chamber. I haven't tried anything that was more than 0.001" over bore. There are a few people who shoot over bore diameter, like Montana Charlie and a couple of guys on the Shiloh site.
I have read Matthews book some time ago. I think he was trying a bunch of interesting things, but I also think that there are a handful of guys in the last 10 years who have pushed this stuff a lot further. Mostly I've got my information from guys like various forums like Brent D., Kenny W, Dean Becker, Dan T., Kurt (leadpot), Rick Mulhern, and Don. As far as books go, probably Randy Wright's is the best out there right now I think.
Chris.
thats similiar to the setup of the Winchester BPCR 45-90 rifles. Except I'm using a .454 dia bullet, 8 lb paper and 12.5 to 1 alloyed bullets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobade
I have a early Pedersoli that has a very long cylinder freebore about .400". I think they must have copied Wolf's Early Shiloh's :)
I had to work for a while to get that rifle to shoot and I did get it to shoot quite well, but I took a Groove diameter bullet to do this or I had to lube the Brooks GG Creedmoor bullets with the bore riding step and run them through the Swage die to bump the bore riding step up to take the bore riding step out and this made that rifle shoot both the PP and GG quite well.
All of these lubed bullets http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...psb337d138.jpg are swaged with no bore riding nose to groove diameter the PP is patched to groove diameter with the bullet seated in the case so it is tight onto the lands. The Lyman 457-121PH also works very good seated out of the case so it makes contact with the lands. The long freebore chamber can be made to shoot quite well and they shoot just as well as my long funnel tapered leads do in my rifles.
Actually, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by .22-10-45
You can patch a bore diameter bullet up to groove diameter and fire it in a modern chamber with very good results.
That may require a paper that is noticeably thicker than the depth of your rifling, so it works better to use a bullet a few thousandths bigger than bore diameter.
My paper increases a bullet by six thousandths, and my groove diameter is .460".
Therefore, I use a bullet that comes out of the mould at .454".
Knowing ahead of time how much increase you get from a chosen paper really simplifies the search for the right mould.
As I have been advising since 2011 ...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post1485256
CM