the perfect hunting bullet..... graphic

this year was my first afield with new 45-70 guide gun which is just about perfect for hunting in a blind i ordered the noe 460-425 pbhp mold and started off with hard cast lubed bullets they shot well but had very little expansion in my informal testing so onto soft pure lead cast paper patched with 9# 25% cotton onion skin (ebay) i went with the cup point pins as i was shooting 1700fps loads with r7 and the full hollow point showed fragmentation in my testing i was hunting with a friend of mine and we both shot similar sized does with similar shot placement in the lungs though my shot 45-70 broke the spine and he just got lung she ran about 70 yards before falling 270 win 130gr bonded hp both animals were shot at 80 yards

no doubt both gun killed effectively and cleanly he was firm in that i was using too much gun i told him we could settle that bet when the skin came off.....
first up the 45-70 428gr soft lead cup point 1700fps, 2743 ft/lbs at the muzzle 0.5 inch entry 1.5 inch exit
Attachment 208641
plenty of trauma but very little meat loss going to loose a bit of grind off the shoulder but back straps are not bruised up

next up 270 130 grain 3060fps, 2703ft/lbs at the muzzle 0.5inch entry 1 inch exit
Attachment 208642
lots of trauma lots of blood shock and bruising probably going to loose a bit of backstrap

while a distance run test would have been interesting as his shot turned the lungs to jelly where as mine only tore a 3 inch hole through them they were both still solid i am confident mine would not have gotten far had her back not ben broken by the shot

after getting the skins off he is coming over to the heavy slow bullet club at least for short range woods hunting in Michigan, out west where 200+ yards in the norm i would go to the fast flat as well

Took me a long time to realize that ft/lbs don't kill, blood loss does!

I'm think a relationship between velocity and hydrostatic shock, not necessarily the weight of the bullet.

everything kills with in reason my idea in posting this thread was to illustrate the the effect of the two principal schools of thought when it comes to hunting game animals whitetail deer probably being the most commonly hunted medium+ game animal im my area as well as many other parts of the country its not often that we get to see 2 near identical shots on near identical animals with quite the different guns and also get a bit of a necropsy i would have taken a picture of the damaged organs but it was dark and there was nothing left of the lungs on the 270 kill

a bit of back ground my friend has a small deer processing business which i often help out with and he invited me up to his family deer camp over the holiday weekend we shot both of these deer with in a minute of each other and from the same blind same broadside angle same range same slope they came in together he told me to take the first shot mine fell the other jumped and stood broadside one yard away he took the shot to fill his tag as well

as far as killing humanely, both guns did an excellent job getting a clean kill is more about shot placement than caliber or velocity that said when your hunting for table meat the low velocity option leaves a bit more meat for the table all things being equal

I've butched deer shot by others and myself. And I've reached the same conclusions, basically. High velocity destroys meat and doesn't really "kill" any better, just maybe knocks them down from shock, and actually leaves smaller blood trails.

That said, 45-70 or a 12 gauge slug are more than adequate at those ranges and sizes. And shot placement, of course, is key.

The most gratifying performance I've observed is from 357 diameter cast bullets going around 1600-2000 FPS at impact, with 158-200 grain weights. 158s don't always pass through. 35 Remington, or 357 Mag/Max/Herrett from handguns.

I think the 38-55 and 375 Win would also work well, based on ballistic similarity, but have not observed.

You have to hurt them to kill them, that's simple logic. You can ruin both rib cages and not be out more than 4 hamburger patties. Shoulders?... different story. Bottom line is you have to cause trauma to catch them, just trim out the blown up stuff (coyotes gotta eat too) and reap the rewards. JW

very good demo. Been told the old springfield 1871 thumps hard without much blood-shot loss. Own a 270 and know what that's capable of w/Nosler's Ballistic tips having a 3200 fps at muzzle handload. (NASTY-EST OF THE NASTY bullets)

Really didn't want to buy another hunting rifle but after seeing this article I may just have to start scouting the local shops soon for a JM model Goverment cartridge shooter. Thanks much for the comparison's mr. mongoosesnipe.

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Originally Posted by OverMax

very good demo. Been told the old springfield 1871 thumps hard without much blood-shot loss. Own a 270 and know what that's capable of w/Nosler's Ballistic tips having a 3200 fps at muzzle handload. (NASTY-EST OF THE NASTY bullets)

Really didn't want to buy another hunting rifle but after seeing this article I may just have to start scouting the local shops soon for a JM model Goverment cartridge shooter. Thanks much for the comparison's mr. mongoosesnipe.

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I caught a deal over the summer marlin was running their $100 rebate and my dealer got me the gun for 460 so i was under $400 after the rebate

I have heard the tales of woe about the remlins but I figured at that price point I could sell it and get my money back out of the gun if it did not perform, I cant speak for all guns but mine is great I dont like the saftey but there are ways around that, while sighting i managed to get a few nice groups and the gun just plain shoots i also took a coyote on the run with it during a drive the same bullet and load blew a 6" exit wound out the back so it probably isnt the best fur harvester load but i am pretty sure i will be keeping this gun forever
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100y off bench with 6x scope

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing! I'm planning to hunt deer this year with my new 30-30. I may well opt for a hand-load 180 gr rather than factory 150 or 170's.

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Originally Posted by Thundarstick

Took me a long time to realize that ft/lbs don't kill, blood loss does!

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Foot pounds of energy only kill if you are using a laser. Blood loss, neural interruption, and destroyed organs kill. We all owe Roy Weatherby a great big raspberry for his promotion of his high velocity cartridges. They hurt the shoulder, needlessly ruin meat, and hurt the ears like not tomorrow. Brodie

I am an old Coot also but bullets only hurt the shoulder if you shoot it.

I have found better places for kill shots .