Sanity check crimping .223

I pretty sure it is fine but considering that it won't hurt to ask but it could hurt not to, here we are :D

I'm beginning to reload .223. At first I kept slightly crunching some cases with the seating/roll crimp die so I got a lee factory crimp die. The 55 grain bullets I'm using have a crimping grove. Once the bullet is done if I push the bullet against the piece of wood (fairly hard) I can get some free play movement on the grove, but not enough to get the bullet collar to leave the grove. This should be fine?

Also how much pressure you put on a bullet to test that it is properly crimped?

I've never seen the need to crimp 223. Case neck tension is plenty good enough to hold.

+1
No need to crimp.

When I was QA Manager for Ruger’s Newport, NH operations in the mid-1980s the company had received Mini-14 rifles back in customer service having cracked right locking lugs.

As often occurs, users would not admit to use of hand loads, which, of course, would void the warranty. But the mechanics of the Garand type locking system being what they are, for this to occur pressure would have to be extreme.

One of our engineers, Albert Cole, had worked at Springfield Armory, (the REAL one) during development of the M14 NM Rifle, had investigated a few incidents of right locking lugs cracking which occurred at Camp Perry when hand loads were used in which bullets did not have mouth varnish or asphalt bullet sealant.

Military teams often requested match ammo be loaded without the sealant. The public reason was supposedly because the sealant was said to be a detriment to accuracy. Frankford Arsenal testing indicated that the Black Lucas sealant improved ballistic uniformity and also reduced metal fouling by acting as a lubricant.

When the subject was pressed further, the unspoken reason for the request came out. It was not for reasons of accuracy, but to make easier to pull the bullets! Military teams were substituting Sierra 168-grain bullets for the GI M118 FMJBT bullets, or making what shooters then called “Mexican Match,” the moniker tagged onto the “GI Reloads” by noted California shooter and several time National Champion Mid Tompkins.

William C. Davis, Jr. was then head of the small caliber lab at Frankford Arsenal. He recommended very strongly against any change in M118 ammunition for several reasons. Primary was the loss of waterproofing which was important for long term storage life and being necessary for combat sniper use.

The second, more important reason is that a real danger arises if an attempt is made to fire a round containing no powder, but having a primer only. That is because case primer blast alone is sufficient to lodge a bullet in the throat just ahead of the origin of rifling. When this occurs, there is usually no audible report. The firer may think that he experienced a short-recoil, accompanied by a failure to eject and may then take immediate action to manually cycle the rifle, eject the spent case and chamber another round and immediately fire it.

If bullets are not securely seated in a tight neck, and either asphalted or crimped, the power of an M1 Garand or M14 action spring in stripping and chambering a round is sufficient to telescope the bullet of the next chambered round back into the case. This causes extreme compression of the powder charge above 100% of load density, increasing pressure from that aspect, but also resulting in firing the rifle with two bullets ahead of this dangerously over-compressed powder charge. With 7.62mm M118 ammunition the resulting "double-bullet proof" pressure is about 80,000 psi. or about 15% above normal proof pressure.

Testing was done at FA in which both M1 and M14 rifles were set up with a bullet lodged in the throat ahead of the chamber, so that upon chambering a standard proof cartridge, the bullet point then rested against the base of bullet obstructing the throat. Upon firing., the broken locking lugs which had been observed at Camp Perry on some TRW rifles could be repeatedly duplicated. Differential heat treatment of the bolt lugs and receiver locking surfaces increased the strength of later M14 rifles, so that they could withstand this double-bullet set-up without breaking locking lugs or setting back locking surfaces to the extent that headspace exceeded field reject limits.

When I worked in Ruger's engineering department, we observed the same broken right-lug problems in Mini-14 rifles in 5.56mm firing handloads. Test results replicating the FA test procedures were FAR more impressive if the case had a soft head below 170 DPH or if there was a draw scratch in the K-L regions of then head-body junction where the case is less supported.

Bottom line, is that if bullets are tightly seated and adequately sealed and/or crimped, enough that loaded rounds withstand 5 secs of sustained compressive force of 80 pounds "bullet push" without measurable shortening, the rifle should then reliably jam, instead of chambering the subsequent manually cycled round. Hopefully the shooter will then recognize that something is wrong!

The concept to ingrain into idiot handloaders is that when anything abnormal happens:

STOP!
Clear chamber / Eject Round
Lock bolt open,
Engage Safety,
Check bore!


Ruger publishes a warning alerting hand loaders to this potential problem in its Mini-14 operators manual. As a result of having worked with Ruger engineers investigating this condition, Lee Precision developed and made available to shooters its Factory Crimp Die. Redding and Dillon both sell profile-crimp dies in 5.56mm, 7.62x39mm, 7.62 NATO and cal. .30 for Garands.

I very highly recommend that you buy and use one of these in every caliber in which you reload ammunition for use in a semi-automatic rifle. I do!

We are not talking accuracy here, Gentlemen, we are talking SAFETY!


IGNORE THIS WARNING AT YOUR OWN PERIL!

You have done us all a great service by posting this. THANK YOU!

I've always crimped ammo intended for semi-auto use, this just gives us all empirical proof (or anecdotal summation of empirical proof) that it's not just based on instinct, but based on experience and fact.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Outpost75

When I was QA Manager for Ruger’s Newport, NH operations in the mid-1980s the company had received Mini-14 rifles back in customer service having cracked right locking lugs.

Bottom line, is that if bullets are tightly seated and adequately sealed and/or crimped, enough that loaded rounds withstand 5 secs of sustained compressive force of 80 pounds "bullet push" without measurable shortening, the rifle should then reliably jam, instead of chambering the subsequent manually cycled round. Hopefully the shooter will then recognize that something is wrong!

The concept to ingrain into idiot handloaders is that when anything abnormal happens:

STOP!
Clear chamber / Eject Round
Lock bolt open,
Engage Safety,
Check bore!


Ruger publishes a warning alerting hand loaders to this potential problem in its Mini-14 operators manual. As a result of having worked with Ruger engineers investigating this condition, Lee Precision developed and made available to shooters its Factory Crimp Die. Redding and Dillon both sell profile-crimp dies in 5.56mm, 7.62x39mm, 7.62 NATO and cal. .30 for Garands.

I very highly recommend that you buy and use one of these in every caliber in which you reload ammunition for use in a semi-automatic rifle. I do!

We are not talking accuracy here, Gentlemen, we are talking SAFETY!


IGNORE THIS WARNING AT YOUR OWN PERIL!

---

I crimp all my rifle rounds.

Assuming that this 223 rifle is a semi auto, crimp. If it is for a single shot such as I have, crimp is not necessary. Bolt guns also do not HAVE to have a crimp.

I use a LEE crimp die for 223 and there is no play in the crimp. I crimp just enough to hold it with heavy pressure pushing the round against the bench. Its not a roll crimp per se, neck tension plays a part. But that boolit is not moving under pressure. What are you using to expand the necks? Also, you don't say if you are using lead or j words? If using J words, are you talking about a cannelure in the body of the bullet?

You better make sure all your brass is trimmed to equal length if you want a consistent crimp.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomme boy

You better make sure all your brass is trimmed to equal length if you want a consistent crimp.

---

Or, get a collet style crimp die and crimp separately from seating.
Collet crimp dies index off the shoulder, case length doesn't matter.

I think I've run into two rifles that NEEDED crimp, the rest simply reducing diameter of neck size did the trick, make the case neck a little tighter.

I have to carry Outpost 75's motion, just not enough safety. (Or common sense/self preservation)

I'm another that does not crimp 223 ammo.

Quote:

---

If bullets are not securely seated in a tight neck, and either asphalted or crimped, the power of an M1 Garand or M14 action spring in stripping and chambering a round is sufficient to telescope the bullet of the next chambered round back into the case.

---

Which brings me to wonder if they resized the cases after pulling the bullets. Simply replacing a pulled bullet with out resizing the neck of the case will not provide sufficient case neck tension.

Quote:

---

I very highly recommend that you buy and use one of these in every caliber in which you reload ammunition for use in a semi-automatic rifle.

---

I equally, and highly, disagree, thank you.

Quote:

---

IGNORE THIS WARNING AT YOUR OWN PERIL!

---

Noted, and will respectfully ignore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by str8wal

... Noted, and will respectfully ignore.

---

Since you decided to selectively take quotes out of context...
I'll point out that OutPost 75 was referencing semi-auto rifle ammo with Garand type actions that are notoriously hard on ammo, and listed those rifles...
.30 US for Garand, 7.62 NATO for M14/M1A, 7.62x39 & 5.56 NATO/.223 Rem for Mini 14s, all Garand actions.

I can also point out AR clone rifles are seriously hard on ammo,
And the military crimps for the same reason, it's the most expedient way to keep the bullet where it belongs.
Even harder to do with the current crop of misaligned & wrong depth chamber nuts in upper receivers in the $299 farm store specials and the kitchen table cobbled together clones.

When the barrel/chamber nut lines up with grooves in the upper receiver, and the bolt can squarely push the round into the chamber, feeding goes a LOT smoother and the bolt locks up squarely, but you can't get the discount & home cobblers to square up & properly space that chamber nut/barrel,
So the alternative is to crimp the bullet hard & hope for the best...

Quote:

---

So the alternative is to crimp the bullet hard & hope for the best...

---

There was a recent discussion on arfcom where a shooter was having difficulty extracting loaded rounds from his AR. After much banter it was revealed he was crimping his bullets. Someone suggest not to crimp, and low and behold, problem went away. I shoot a lot of AR-15 in 223/5.56 and have never crimped a bullet and have never had a problem.

I crimp SOME of my .223 for reliability reasons and use the Lee collet crimping die. I only crimp that ammunition that is stockpiled for EOTWAWKI. I have had no issues from not crimping my hunting and target ammo but I want to know that I will not get bullet setback in a life or death situation. I also have a Garand and have never crimped for it or any other rifle.