Crimp-No Crimp 45-70 Hunting Loads Grease-Groove

I want to develop some loads for a Shiloh Sharps in 45-70. I want to try paper patching, but also want to do some work with the Gould grease groove bullet with the goal of using it for whitetails in Nov... I have loaded target loads several years ago in a 45-70 with blackpowder and used enough crimp to keep the bullet in place...anyone have experience with the Gould? Has anyone had success with or without a crimp... I will be compressing the charge and using an over powder wad. Thinking of starting around 70 grs of Swiss, but will get a better idea once I start the process to see where the compressed load works with bullet fit.

thanks in advance for sharing your experiences.

Kindest regards,

TheMoose

I think it would depend a lot on neck tension for your particular brass/boolit combo. With good neck tension, a crimp may not be needed. With light neck tension, it's possible with compressed powder that you could get some boolits moving forward in the neck. This would, I think, wreck accuracy in my opinion.

I like a light crimp.....even my single shot loads get touched with a FCD, black or smokeless. I'm sure you'll get other feedback....probably from others who shoot much better/more than I do, but that's my $0.02.

Enjoy your rifle and good luck this fall!

Trails.

imo, the best cartridge case mouth tension (IF practical, i.e - s/s guns) is no tension at all. i never "crimped" for .45-70 greasers and still don't for PPBs. but in both cases (pun intended) after the round is constructed i "squeeze" the fire formed (or pseudo fire formed) case mouth so the bullet won't fall out, yet it can still twist around and be pulled out. all of this is with full up cases of real black powder and a wad, or wads. ymmv.

Here is one way to do this. Measure inside of a sized case mouth to see what it sizes to with your brass. most dies with out expanding will take case to .454-.455 inside dia. Heres the process in steps
1) deprime fired brass by hand
2) clean brass and primer pockets by hand if needed
3) reprime
4) charge with powder
5) compress powder with die using wad to seal and compress
6) hand seat bullet onto wad stack
7) Raise sizing die and size to where the bullet is just tensioned in the case This is usually around .400 above full length setting.
I shoot as cast and pan lubed. my cake cutter is .468 id dia so it leaves lube .005+ around bullet When loading like this the lube is actually compressed and holds the bullet more so than the bullet does.

Once you have the correct setting for the sizer die measure and make a washer 1 1/2" od .890" id and the thickness required. with this washer you can leave the lock ring set and just use it to set die height.

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Originally Posted by Themoose

I want to develop some loads for a Shiloh Sharps in 45-70. I want to try paper patching, but also want to do some work with the Gould grease groove bullet with the goal of using it for whitetails in Nov... I have loaded target loads several years ago in a 45-70 with blackpowder and used enough crimp to keep the bullet in place...anyone have experience with the Gould? Has anyone had success with or without a crimp... I will be compressing the charge and using an over powder wad. Thinking of starting around 70 grs of Swiss, but will get a better idea once I start the process to see where the compressed load works with bullet fit.

thanks in advance for sharing your experiences.

Kindest regards,

TheMoose

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For hunting loads you might want to think about sacrificing the last little bit of accuracy in favour of practicality - easy function.
Enough crimp to hold everything in place and ensure easy chambering ? Cold fumbly fingers and a cold gun ?
Do not take one round in the field hunting that has not been test cycled in the gun you are carrying (that sounds like dumb advice but you be surprised at the fellers that have come unstuck on a hunt cuz they didnt do it)

Single shot -- which ever shoots best. No requirement for a crimp when used in a single shot.

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Originally Posted by 725

Single shot -- which ever shoots best. No requirement for a crimp when used in a single shot.

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Dont need a crimp in a single shot ......... hes huntin..... first shot dont quite git it done, hammer back, lever down, empty case spits out slick and quick, pulls second round from his lil bandolier thingy, chambered, lever up, kaboom .... plugged that charging bear right bretween the eyes with a 60 thou poly wad ...when they cleaned up the mess they found a fresh grease groove gould boolit in the snow where his feet were ........nah dont need crimp its a single shot .:bigsmyl2:

One has to realize that when hunting, one may load and unload the gun a few times.
I have been shooting before, at the range, and needed to unload the gun for whatever reason. The case came out, but the slug was still in the barrel.
Don't need a crimp? I'd argue that point. But then again, that's just me.

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Originally Posted by Knarley

One has to realize that when hunting, one may load and unload the gun a few times.
I have been shooting before, at the range, and needed to unload the gun for whatever reason. The case came out, but the slug was still in the barrel.
Don't need a crimp? I'd argue that point. But then again, that's just me.

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And me Knarley

Even with enough tension and a good crimp, single shots can choke especially with BP. Back when I used to size and crimp I managed to get a boolit stuck in the breech and had to run a cleaning rod down the bore to poke it out. The boolit wouldn't come unstuck from the throat and the the case wouldn't release the boolit. This was a rolling block with rotary extractor and I didn't want to risk breaking the extractor by hauling back too hard on the breech block.
For hunting I would always crimp and as mentioned above, make sure each round will chamber and extract.

I know some folk will howl about this, but I don't like the bullet stuffed into the riflings. I don't leave a big gap, but I leave a gap.

There are two types of single shot hunters, those who crimp their loads for hunting and those who soon will.

I use an expander the same size of the bullets. The only neck tension I get is from spring back of the case mouth. I shoot only at a range so I can load about .050 too long. Then the bullet is fully seated by thumb pressure as the breech is closed.

Hunting would require more neck tension but the neck tension and the flare should be carefully monitored to avoid damaging the bullet bases and shanks. If you damage the bullets crimping inaccuracy and leading may result.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Knarley

I know some folk will howl about this, but I don't like the bullet stuffed into the riflings. I don't leave a big gap, but I leave a gap.

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I set them into the rifling for shooting off the bench: worst thing that can happen is I have to punch out a stuck boolit. I'd never load them that way for a hunt.