Is .44 mag "difficult" to load down for?

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Originally Posted by wilecoyote

I would size them all, then verifying and, if necessary, trimming them with a Lee .44mag. case gauge & trimmer combo.
this will ensure the uniform height and, once loaded, the same crimp for all_

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Just so I'm understanding, I basically size the empty brass before I start the whole loading process, only once, for new brass. Is that right? (and obviously after each reload, but additionally an extra time before loading for the first time)

Being quite lazy, have never sized new Starline brass. Not had any problems with 44 Special, other than needing to bell the case mouths for cast bullets, which is what I always use. Not had any problems in the last 6 or 7 years.

MINT, I've done that both ways with "new from the box" brass and could never tell any difference between the methods. If you later acquire "custom" dies for one of your rifles, obviously, that might change things.
The "after every firing" thing is also correct. Also, the amount of pressure to which the brass is subjected will determine the effort (on the press lever) needed to resize.
I had a box full of .45 Colt brass that I'd used for magnum-level loads separated by a divider from brass that I'd used to duplicate factory performance. One day of new playful puppy, too long unsupervised, and the divider is removed and partly chewed, along with a fully jostled and well-mixed box of .45 Colt brass. Lamenting my use of the same head stamp for both ammo lots, I started resizing. A .45 Colt load of 8.0/Unique/250 gr RNFP may generate more pressure than SAAMI spec (14,000 psi), but not MUCH more. It resized fairly easily. The rifle load, 19.5/2400/250 gr. RNFP, however, most ASSUREDLY did. These cases made me glad I was using a Rockchucker for the task.

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Originally Posted by Mint

Just so I'm understanding, I basically size the empty brass before I start the whole loading process, only once, for new brass. Is that right? (and obviously after each reload, but additionally an extra time before loading for the first time)

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I do this but I know and I admit I'm OCD.
the costs of the materials involved justify to me as much care as possible.
then, if I shoot badly, I prefer to think that it is certainly the shooter's fault,
but maybe am me.

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Originally Posted by Kosh75287

MINT, I've done that both ways with "new from the box" brass and could never tell any difference between the methods. If you later acquire "custom" dies for one of your rifles, obviously, that might change things.
The "after every firing" thing is also correct. Also, the amount of pressure to which the brass is subjected will determine the effort (on the press lever) needed to resize.
I had a box full of .45 Colt brass that I'd used for magnum-level loads separated by a divider from brass that I'd used to duplicate factory performance. One day of new playful puppy, too long unsupervised, and the divider is removed and partly chewed, along with a fully jostled and well-mixed box of .45 Colt brass. Lamenting my use of the same head stamp for both ammo lots, I started resizing. A .45 Colt load of 8.0/Unique/250 gr RNFP may generate more pressure than SAAMI spec (14,000 psi), but not MUCH more. It resized fairly easily. The rifle load, 19.5/2400/250 gr. RNFP, however, most ASSUREDLY did. These cases made me glad I was using a Rockchucker for the task.

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Ha!! Good ol puppers makin life difficult (and amazing) from day one.

Ok thanks, I'm also glad I started with a Rock Chucker...

So far I have been reading for about 4-5 days straight now. I just ordered neck expanders for .002 and .003 neck tension (magazine tube), as well as 44 mag brass, and I also got some extra powder (Bullseye, IMR-4227). I also got some cast boolitisitos (44 mag .430, 200gr and 250gr).

Also some beef jerky :groner:

Also my cast bullet book comes today

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Originally Posted by wilecoyote

I would size them all, then verifying and, if necessary, trimming them with a Lee .44mag. case gauge & trimmer combo.
this will ensure the uniform height and, once loaded, the same crimp for all_

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ive been using starline brass for decades and have never had to do anything to new brass but put a primer, powder and projectile in them and expand the mouth as little as necessary. unless they have made drastic changes to the quality control in the past year or so there is no need to run it though a sizer first. the most recent calibers ive gotten from them is 45 colt and 6.5 creed moor and all of it has been perfect right out of the box just the same as the first 357 brass I got from them at least 30 years ago.

I have one other beginner reloading question... so I read in the Lyman book that when I use a specific bullet, I need to seat to the COAL specified under that specific bullet in the load data.

This is probably a very dumb question, but why would it not be consistent across every bullet? I am asking because I am concerned that I'm not buying the exact bullets in the book, I'm getting the appropriate wider diameter (+0.001) but they're different brands. I want to know how to seat it properly if I don't have a COAL that the book is telling me.

For instance, on a .44 magnum cartridge, which headspaces from the breech face to the front of the rim, ... then why wouldn't the bullet seating not just always remain what is specified in the load data diagram, which is 1.610

As a sidenote, I understand that people will long the bullet closer to the lands, and this improves accuracy, but still I don't think that changes my question because I would imagine all bullets equally would move closer to the lands, so that each one wouldn't really affect the COAL?

I am also confused why some bullets are over the spec diagram (1.645), while others are the same as the diagram (1.610)

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Originally Posted by farmbif

ive been using starline brass for decades and have never had to do anything to new brass but put a primer, powder and projectile in them and expand the mouth as little as necessary. unless they have made drastic changes to the quality control in the past year or so there is no need to run it though a sizer first. the most recent calibers ive gotten from them is 45 colt and 6.5 creed moor and all of it has been perfect right out of the box just the same as the first 357 brass I got from them at least 30 years ago.

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...in rifle calibers, even more so when bottleneck cases, personally I become even more OCD,
but this does not question the quality of Starline brass, nor of other respected names, let alone the validity of practices different than mine.
as said, mine are probably obsessions, if not my own voodoo extensions :)

(not infrequently it happened to me to buy new case boxes and find deformed ones during handling, packaging or shipping. and I'm talking about Norma, Lapua, Sako_ rather than discovering it late, I prefer systematically to operate as I said and start with a reasonable certainty of homogeneity)

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Originally Posted by Mint

I have one other beginner reloading question... so I read in the Lyman book that when I use a specific bullet, I need to seat to the COAL specified under that specific bullet in the load data.

This is probably a very dumb question, but why would it not be consistent across every bullet? I am asking because I am concerned that I'm not buying the exact bullets in the book, I'm getting the appropriate wider diameter (+0.001) but they're different brands. I want to know how to seat it properly if I don't have a COAL that the book is telling me.

For instance, on a .44 magnum cartridge, which headspaces from the breech face to the front of the rim, ... then why wouldn't the bullet seating not just always remain what is specified in the load data diagram, which is 1.610

As a sidenote, I understand that people will long the bullet closer to the lands, and this improves accuracy, but still I don't think that changes my question because I would imagine all bullets equally would move closer to the lands, so that each one wouldn't really affect the COAL?

I am also confused why some bullets are over the spec diagram (1.645), while others are the same as the diagram (1.610)

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Short n Sweet
Differnt Bullet Shape ..changes the amount of Bullet (projectile) Inside the case... stealing Room ..changes Pressure..

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Originally Posted by racepres

Short n Sweet
Differnt Bullet Shape ..changes the amount of Bullet (projectile) Inside the case... stealing Room ..changes Pressure..

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Ooooo... right... Thanks. that is obvious in retrospect.

So what dimensions do I look at to figure out the proper seating depth of an arbitrary bullet?

Think of it this way.

With special level or starting level magnums, or anywhere in between, you have a pressure safety buffer so to speak. Off memory, 44 mag is 35k psi. So if you load a 15k psi load like 7 grains unique, basically a special level load in mag cases, you have a large buffer of safety so that if your bullet seats a bit deeper than the books bullet, or is a bit heavier, you still won’t be anywhere near max pressure.

For seating depth, the measurement doesn’t make any real difference. Seat to the crimp groove. If you seat to about 3/4 the crimp groove, then you will be about right.

Well Said... I seat to crimp groove...always..even if I feel a need to adjust powder charge +/-

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Originally Posted by Bazoo

Think of it this way.

With special level or starting level magnums, or anywhere in between, you have a pressure safety buffer so to speak. Off memory, 44 mag is 35k psi. So if you load a 15k psi load like 7 grains unique, basically a special level load in mag cases, you have a large buffer of safety so that if your bullet seats a bit deeper than the books bullet, or is a bit heavier, you still won’t be anywhere near max pressure.

For seating depth, the measurement doesn’t make any real difference. Seat to the crimp groove. If you seat to about 3/4 the crimp groove, then you will be about right.

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I agree 100%. With Lee TL cast bullets which have a number of crimp grooves I crimp at the upper most crimp groove. And then with revolver loads I do a plunk test to make sure it will easily chamber in the revolver chambers.
Attachment 306132

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Originally Posted by JoeJames

I agree 100%. With Lee TL cast bullets which have a number of crimp grooves I crimp at the upper most crimp groove. And then with revolver loads I do a plunk test to make sure it will easily chamber in the revolver chambers.
Attachment 306132

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This was another pending question I had but I didnt ask yet because I'm right on the page starting 'cast bullets' in the lyman manual for today, and I'm assuming they talk about this. I'm methodically working my way there, but just because you mentioned it...

What do you mean 3/4 groove? I notice some bullets will have:

1) no grooves, but still a groove at the top

https://missouribullet.com/cw3/asset...38match-gl.jpg

2) several uneven grooves, usually 1 type of groove and then multiple of the same different type:

https://i.imgur.com/ztTotBk.png

https://i.imgur.com/nG26plW.jpg

3) even more grooves, must still a groove at the top

https://www.grafs.com/uploads/produc...view/75203.jpg

What are all these for and how do I use them

3/4 groove, I meant as seat your bullet depth into the case so that the mouth of the case is not at the top of the crimp groove, nor the bottom, but stops at about 3/4 of the way up the crimp groove.

The bullet with only 1 groove is smooth because with powder coated or similar coating they don’t need lube grooves. The top groove is a crimp groove, the rest are lube grooves regardless of how many. An exception is that there are occasional bullets with 2 crimp grooves to offer a choice of seating depth. Lyman 358156 bullet is like this.

So you might ask why some bullets are powder coated but still retain the lube grooves? It’s because either that style bullet is popular and reloaders will accept the advantages of powder coating but don’t want to change from a known accurate bullet design. Or it may be because the companies that make them bought the moulds for lubed bullets, and continued to use them after switching to PC. No reason to give up on a mould that casts good and retool. The other reason is, let’s say you have 429421 bullets. Data everywhere and it’s been pressure tested a lot. Powder coating it doesn’t make all that info useless though it likely affects the pressure slightly. But changing lube types also affects pressure some. Staying with the traditional bullet makes a lot of sense. Also, the number and size of the grooves / bearing surface variation, affects pressure. So a bullet with no grooves has more bearing surface and will make more pressure than the identical bullet with lube grooves.

Pearce, in handloader magazine has published several articles on down loading the 44 mag. I don’t know if I have them. But it’s worth checking out if anyone knows the magazine numbers to look for? He covers basically what you’re doing with some data, most of which will be pressure tested.

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Originally Posted by Bazoo

3/4 groove, I meant as seat your bullet depth into the case so that the mouth of the case is not at the top of the crimp groove, nor the bottom, but stops at about 3/4 of the way up the crimp groove.

The bullet with only 1 groove is smooth because with powder coated or similar coating they don’t need lube grooves. The top groove is a crimp groove, the rest are lube grooves regardless of how many. An exception is that there are occasional bullets with 2 crimp grooves to offer a choice of seating depth. Lyman 358156 bullet is like this.

So you might ask why some bullets are powder coated but still retain the lube grooves? It’s because either that style bullet is popular and reloaders will accept the advantages of powder coating but don’t want to change from a known accurate bullet design. Or it may be because the companies that make them bought the moulds for lubed bullets, and continued to use them after switching to PC. No reason to give up ona mould that casts good and retool. The other reason is, let’s say you have 429421 bullets. Data everywhere and it’s been pressure tested a lot. Powder coating it doesn’t make all that info useless though it likely affects the pressure slightly. But changing lube types also affects pressure some. Staying with the traditional bullet makes a lot of sense. Also, the number and size of the grooves / bearing surface variation, affects pressure. So a bullet with no grooves has more bearing surface and will make more pressure than the identical bullet with lube grooves.

Pearce, in handloader magazine has published several articles on down loading the 44 mag. I don’t know if I have them. But it’s worth checking out if anyone knows the magazine numbers to look for? He covers basically what you’re doing with some data, most of which will be pressure tested.

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Ah, very interesting. Great explanation! So I assume with all Hi-tek bullets then (what I'm using) I dont really need to worry about the bottom grooves at all then, and maybe even should buy grooveless bullets.

PS and yes, if you find that magazine let me know I'd love to see that

Lube grooves are not needed with PC or hi tek but I personally wouldn’t try to exclude bullets with lube grooves. Bullets have a balance when flying. The size and shape of the groove affects that. Lube grooves also play a part in how the bullet cuts through the wind, particularly if the bullet goes from supersonic to subsonic during its flight. With short range 44s that’s not an issue however. Lube grooves also serve as a crush zone when the bullets enter the rifling. The top portion of bullet hits the rifling and begins to twist before the bottom. Now, in that split second, is it really an issue? Sometimes it could be, but likely not in your case. So the short of it is, I’d use whatever I could get if it suited my fancy, lube grooves or not.

I ain’t fully kept up with your endeavors, so if someone hasn’t mentioned it, I will. You should find a local mentor. If you’re near me I’m glad to teach you. Not to say you shouldn’t ask a million questions here. But it will shorten your learning curve. I learned with no mentor, reading all o could and asking questions here and other places.

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Originally Posted by Bazoo

Lube grooves are not needed with PC or hi tek but I personally wouldn’t try to exclude bullets with lube grooves. Bullets have a balance when flying. The size and shape of the groove affects that. Lube grooves also play a part in how the bullet cuts through the wind, particularly if the bullet goes from supersonic to subsonic during its flight. With short range 44s that’s not an issue however. Lube grooves also serve as a crush zone when the bullets enter the rifling. The top portion of bullet hits the rifling and begins to twist before the bottom. Now, in that split second, is it really an issue? Sometimes it could be, but likely not in your case. So the short of it is, I’d use whatever I could get if it suited my fancy, lube grooves or not.

I ain’t fully kept up with your endeavors, so if someone hasn’t mentioned it, I will. You should find a local mentor. If you’re near me I’m glad to teach you. Not to say you shouldn’t ask a million questions here. But it will shorten your learning curve. I learned with no mentor, reading all o could and asking questions here and other places.

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Thanks. Unfortunately I had someone who was going to help me reload but after i talked to him for longer I started to piece together inaccurate information he was telling me, and I lost interest in learning from him. I'll still be on the lookout when I go to the range... I remember seeing a bench rest shooter who had what looked like $10,000 of gear. It literally took him 20 minutes to unpack his notebooks, boxes, cables, gear, electronic boxes, etc. I'm sure he would be good to talk to :-o

In the meantime, I've just been reading in books and online for maybe 8-10 hours a day. I'm on like day 5 now and I feel like I have a really pretty solid grasp. It will only be maybe 4-5 more days before my primers/brass/powder get here and I can actually begin. The good news is I am not intimidated by the learning curve at all. My normal trade is extremely difficult so I am very accustomed to punishing learning curves, and really enjoy it because it's mentally stimulating.

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Originally Posted by Bazoo

Lube grooves are not needed with PC or hi tek but I personally wouldn’t try to exclude bullets with lube grooves. Bullets have a balance when flying. The size and shape of the groove affects that. Lube grooves also play a part in how the bullet cuts through the wind, particularly if the bullet goes from supersonic to subsonic during its flight. With short range 44s that’s not an issue however. Lube grooves also serve as a crush zone when the bullets enter the rifling. The top portion of bullet hits the rifling and begins to twist before the bottom. Now, in that split second, is it really an issue? Sometimes it could be, but likely not in your case. So the short of it is, I’d use whatever I could get if it suited my fancy, lube grooves or not.

I ain’t fully kept up with your endeavors, so if someone hasn’t mentioned it, I will. You should find a local mentor. If you’re near me I’m glad to teach you. Not to say you shouldn’t ask a million questions here. But it will shorten your learning curve. I learned with no mentor, reading all o could and asking questions here and other places.

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I agree again. One thing about lube grooves and why I would avoid cast bullets without lube grooves - other folks are far more expert than I am for sure, but I guess and kind of assume that the lube grooves also serve a purpose in obturating the soft alloy bullet into the rifling grooves. That is instead of the full sides of the whole bullet having to fill into the rifling grooves just the flanges do so? (not sure if that is the proper word) would have to fill the rifling grooves completely down to the bottom of the lube grooves?

Nothing wrong with learning without a mentor and it’s really quite easy. Reloading is not hard at all. But understanding what happens and why, in both reloading and ballistics, is the hard part. You don’t have to understand it to do it safely, but it sure helps.

To learn setting up the dies, which is the hardest part, make a few dummy cartridges. That is, no powder or primer. I still make dummies to test out new gear or settings.