How I turned a perfectly good revolver into a giant paper weight

Hi...
I started loading ammunition many, many years ago without a mentor or anybody to show or explain things or what pitfalls to avoid.

First thing I did was read about 4 different reloading manuals and learn the theoretical process. Then I bought some equipment(Lee) and components and started loading .357Mag rounds.
I had to learn to calibrate and use a scale, learn how to use dial calipers and micrometers and all the intricacies of preparing and reloading cartridges all on my own. I learned to double-check powder charges and OAL and never had a misfire or any problems whatsoever.

After a few thousand rounds loaded using a single-stage Lee Loader, I thought that I knew everything there was to know about loading ammunition.
So, I bought a brand-new Lee 1000 progressive press. And found out that I really didn't know very much at all. The hype around the progressive press was that you set the powder measure, loaded up the primer fill mechanism, filled the powder hopper and loaded the bullet feed mechanism and each pull of the handle produced a loaded round.

After running through the process one round at a time a few times, I got lazy and stopped checking the powder level because that just slowed things down. And a progressive is all about cranking out copious amounts of ammo in as short a period of time as possible,right?

WRONG!

After some number of rounds that I no longer remember, I decided to stop and fill up some ammo boxes with all those nice new cartridges that I had loaded.
I noticed that a primer had not seated properly...it was upside down. OK, I guess that can happen, so I set that round aside to disassemble and finished boxing up the other rounds. I didn't stop to think that if one thing went wrong that it was entirely possible that something else might be out of kilter as well.

At any rate, my wife and I had a match the next day and things did not go well.
I fired a round in the middle of the match that did not sound quite right and immediately called an "alibi".
I had a jacketed bullet stuck in the barrel of my .357Mag revolver. I managed to tap it out with a cleaning rod. Other shooting team members advised me not to shoot any more of those cartridges until I had checked them out.

So, I went out and bought a kinetic bullet puller and started to disassemble rounds. A couple had very light powder charges and a couple didn't have any powder in them at all. All of this out of two 50rd boxes of reloads.

Why? Well part of it was that I got lazy and sloppy and relied too much on my equipment and the hype surrounding a progressive press and the supposed benefits of same.

I re-read everything about the Lee 1000 and went all over it with all due diligence and started reloading cartridges again.

I soon found that the primer feed would constantly mis feed primers, some upside down and it would regularly jam up. I also discovered that by checking each powder charge that I was getting very inconsistent powder charging.

I played around with that press for quite a while before it became clear that it was never going to function reliably for me.

What I did was put it back in a box where it resides to this very day along with the aluminum Lee loader that I soon discovered was actually flexing as I re-sized handgun cases.

I bought an RCBS RockChucker and a Little Dandy powder measure and went back to loading ammunition on a single-stage press. I weigh every charge when I start throwing powder to set the measure and then every tenth charge as I charge and visually check each and every case for proper powder level.

I prime cases ahead of time on an RCBS APS bench-mounted unit.

I do each case prep step on an RCBS case-prep center including cleaning every primer pocket.
I measure cases for OAL and inspect every case visually throughout the process numerous times.
When loading cartridges, I do not allow ANY distractions. My family knows that if I am reloading that any interruption had best be for a very good reason because reloading is not a process to be trifled with.

I charge 50 cases and visually check each case and weigh every tenth charge and then seat bullets. I then check every tenth cartridge for OAL. Any discrepancies and out comes the bullet puller.

I have not had a squib load since the first one all those years ago and do not expect to have another. But...I still check each and every charged case and weigh every tenth charge.

And that is done for each and every cartridge that I have ever loaded and there have been many, many thousands in various calibers.

While I may eventually buy another progressive press, it will not be a Lee and will be as mature a design as is possible. And I will still check powder levels and weigh every tenth powder charge.

Mack, see the bottom half of post #70. B/C gap (and one point you did not mention, cylinder throat diameter) has been mentioned before.

And 375, your problems were caused by unfamiliarity with the Pro 1000 press, predominantly. Ask me about the primer feed and metering capabilities of the Auto Disk and Pro Auto Disk measures and be better informed. I have loaded 10's of thousands of rounds on such a press without incident.

Weighing and checking powder levels after initial setup is not necessary save for the very occasional check provided you know what you are about. This post is intended to get you there by familiarizing you with the nuances of the setup. It can be done with knowledge on your side.

If I can do it anyone can. The primer feed issue is very easy to overcome. So is the powder thing. End of problem.

I started loading in 1958 and still am not competent enough to use a progressive loader.

Personal issues I cannot address. Specific ones regarding the press function I can address. Sounded like primers and powder metering were his issues, and those are easily fixable with the design.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Char-Gar

I started loading in 1958 and still am not competent enough to use a progressive loader.

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^^^^^^^^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Char-Gar

Stand behind and to the side of somebody as they shoot a revolver at night and see how much fire shoots out of the b/c gap and you will realize how much gas goes out. The bigger the gap he more the gas loss. It doesn't take the b/c gap to be much out of spec before performance starts to suffer.

The WWII 158 grain FMJ ammo was loaded to what would now be +P pressure and in short order it turned those vintage Smith and Wesson K frames into rattling wrecks with increasing b/c gaps. With increasing pressure going out the gap, the amount left to shove the bullet out the barrel dropped to the sticking point.

Animal's Taurus may have started life with a large b/c gap, I have seen revolvers come factory fresh out of spec that way. I sent several new Smith and Wessons back to the factory for a fix back around the early 80's.

The larger the gap the greater the performance loss and it also can result in diminished accuracy due to alignment issues.

This is more Sixgun 101 stuff.

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Not trying to hijack this thread, but how would you go about fixing a large barrel/cylinder gap? Would you shim the cylinder forward, or re-seat the barrel to close the gap?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikeym1a

Not trying to hijack this thread, but how would you go about fixing a large barrel/cylinder gap? Would you shim the cylinder forward, or re-seat the barrel to close the gap?

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You use shims to move the cylinder back and removed "end shake". The only fix for too large a B/C gap is to set the barrel back a thread and reset the gap.

I have taken night "portraits" with muzzle flash, cylinder gap flash is very noticeable!

I've had one squib load, no powder in a 44mag, non-magnum primer, bullet didn't jump the crimp.

I won't use a loading block. Charge case, look, put it in shell holder, insert boolit.

Long ago a friend dropped the hammer on his SBH, nothing happened. He cocked it
again, I yelled STOP STOP STOP! We drove the boolit out of the barrel with a stick.
Apparently no powder. He always used magnum primers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by a.squibload

I won't use a loading block. Charge case, look, put it in shell holder, insert boolit.

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+1...using this procedure is the MOST reliable method.

Also, quick comment on 35Rem post: telling somebody not to start with published min loads and work up contradicts everything that's been published on the subject to my knowledge. Not saying it's wrong, just sayin'...

Last comment, beating somebody up on the internet you don't know and have no relationship with is mostly pointless at best, and likely counter-productive. The financial consequences alone of a "near miss" like this tend to be self correcting. Not that I'm opposed to correction...did 24 years of active military service, taught at a couple different ascessions schools, taught unarmed combat, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah...you get the point. Now, just as a teaching point, who's gonna take my last comment and change ANYTHING as a result? Huh?

Ok guys... Mr. Goodsteel especially. Here is the promised charge data. Remember my revolver has a 7 round cylinder. The first round made it to paper and the following 6 lodged in the barred [smilie=b:. The next 7 rounds were loaded in the revolver and have not been removed due to a locked up cylinder :violin:

49 rounds made between 3.7 start and 4.9 max. I worked up from 3.7 in 2/10 charges with 7 rounds each charge. This leaves me with 35 rounds to examine the charge.

Load #1 3.7gr (unavailable)
Load #2 3.9gr (unavailable)
Load #3 4.1gr
1. 4.1
2. 3.9 (lost partial charge in the kinetic hammer)
3. 3.6 (lost partial charge in the kinetic hammer)
4. 3.9 (lost partial charge in the kinetic hammer)
5. 3.5 (lost partial charge in the kinetic hammer)
6. 4.1
7. 4.1

Ok, I've not had a situation yet where I had to pull a bullet and weight the charge. Obviously I had a difficult time preserving 4 of the charges, but I figured out how to do it after the the last one.

Load #4 4.3gr

1. 4.3
2. 4.3-4.4 (not sure which the scale liked the best)
3. 4.2-4.3 (not sure which the scale liked the best)
4. 4.3
5. 4.3
6. 4.3
7. 4.3

Load #5 4.5gr

1. 4.5
2. 4.5
3. 4.5
4. 4.5
5. 4.4-4.5 (not sure which the scale liked the best)
6. 4.4
7. 4.5

Load #6 4.7gr

1. 4.7
2. 4.7
3. 4.7
4. 4.8
5. 4.7
6. 4.7
7. 4.6-4.7 (not sure which the scale liked the best)

Load #7 4.9gr

1. 4.9
2. 4.9-5.0 (not sure which the scale liked the best)
3. 4.9-5.0 (not sure which the scale liked the best)
4. 4.8
5. 4.9
6. 4.9-5.0 (not sure which the scale liked the best)
7. 4.9

OK...That is what I expected you would find. There were no mischarged cases. The 3.7 start loads were just underpowered and due to "whatever" did not have the pizz to get one of the bullets out of the barrel and the rest stacked up.

If you would have started with the 4.9 load, you would not have had the problem until you got to the low end.

Again, the lesson to be learned is;

1. Just because somebody write it in a book and says it is OK does not mean that will work for you.
2. Shoot jacketed bullets in a sixgun at low end target speeds and there is a good chance you will stick a bullet.
3. Keep jacked bullet loads up to or above standard velocity or better yet +P.

This is not new information, but has been around for several generations. Back in the day, some older shooter would have said "Don't do that", but in this internet age we don't get much of that personal involvement.

Char-Gar that is exactly what I was feeling after I examined the charges, but I wanted to hear it from a seasoned reloader before I rested on that conclusion. Thanks, this has been one hell of a lesson!

Yes, it is a lesson that all of us need to learn or relearn. The would not have occurred with cast bullet, at least with your powder charges. Even with alloy bullets you can stick them, if you drop the pressure beyond a certain point.

Why anybody would shoot those dreadful little yellow thingies is beyond my ability to understand. :-)

Thanks for taking time and effort to pull and weigh the charges. When we have facts, we can stop guessing and have some real basis to understand what happened and why.

Singleshot... the potential financial consequences are the reason that I chose to learn how to reload with my 430 buck Taurus as opposed to my 900 buck Ruger... When I think about my loved Taurus being buggered up it makes my stomach twist in knots. But when I think about my extremely loved Ruger .44 Super Red Hawk being in pristine condition... I want to dance in the street.

I'm glad I made one good decision!

Char-Gar, I bought those XTPs a few months go when they finally came available. I went ahead and dropped the big bucks with Midway to get a thousand. Since I didn't want to deplete my XTP stash I began to tinker with lead. I bought no-name boxes of lead boolits from my LGS. I all but swore them off until I came across this forum. I was leading at all velocities, my accuracy was horrible and I was ready to sell them off to someone who cast boolits. With this forum I learned about slugging the bore and throats. I began sort those boolits by diameter. They were advertised at .358, but half of them were well below .357. I found my accuracy and enjoyment increased a great deal with a proper sized boolit. I still had terrible leading problems but I learned about characteristics of boolit lube and hardcast boolits. A fellow member of this forum was kind enough to send me a block of beeswax, soft gas-checks and some .359 boolits. I first experiemented with the beeswax and Vaseline. The leading stopped all together. I've used the beeswax/Vaseline lube along with 9.4 gr of Blue Dot, 12.4 gr of 2400, 4227 and HP-38. My barrel was clean as a whistle.

The only reason I fooled with the xtps recently was because I was almost out of boolits, I don't have a mold yet to cast my own, and I was chompin at the bit to load something new to add to my file of 'good loads'. I won't be surprised if I never use another jacketed bullet. I've got several hundred pounds of lead and have found a lube that works. Why change a good thing?

I have been using the beeswax/Vaseline mix for over 50 years with complete satisfaction.

If you won't want to cast your own, I can recommend Matts Bullets. He can provide a number of hand cast designs, that come with a very good lube and the correct alloy. His prices are reasonable and he is a good person to work with. For most of my routine handgun shooting I buy bullet from him.

Squibs can happen faulty primer bad powder charge stuck, or brigded. A couple shilouette matches ago was shooting with a good friend and a very experienced shooter. there was a really wild shot ( way of the pig. We discused his hold and call I pointed out on the spotter board where his shot was, All normal things. He got back into position cocked the hammer on his browning settled in and click. He open the action and removed an empty case started to reach for a loaded one. I stopped him and told him look thru the barrel, did youu forget to load or was it a squib? Make sure theres nothing in the barrel. He was very glad to have been reminded to do this as in the heat of the charging pigs and match nerves it never occures to him. But could have been a major opps otherwise. No there was nothing in the barrel but it dint cost anythin to look and make sure. Saftey first second and always.

Animal, thank you for pulling down the cotton pickin ammo.
I confess, I was waiting pensively for the outcome. This is a real shocker to me, and I'm not too ashamed to admit it. I trust the books as being the last word, and this is the first time I have ever heard of a written and published book giving potentially dangerous information.
I owe you an apology for busting your chops, and I admit that I was dead wrong in my thinking.
(I officially apologize)
I believe I could have made the same mistake (although, I probably wouldn't have stacked a bunch of bullets) and I would have been just as confused about the outcome.
The outcome of this thread is extremely valuable information. A hard road to extremely pertinent information.
I see how this could happen with excessive cylinder gap, but I've never heard of such an instance before.
Thanks for being a good sport and hanging in there.

Mr. Goodsteel,

You don't owe me an apology. I never felt that you were acting in any particularly crude way. In fact, if you didn't press me to do it... I doubt I wouldn't have pulled the bullets. I didn't think I would be able to preserve enough charges to make a real determination as to the actual load in the shells.

I've met some real good folks with this thread. You are one of them. I can't remember everyone's names, but Char-Gar, (who i admit rattled my cage in the beginnin) you and a few other folks who are experts in my opinion chose to give a rookie like me the benefit of the doubt. That speaks a lot about your character and that is why I have respect for you guys.

Char-Gar mentioned having learned at the feet of some extraordinary people... My situation is a little bit different, but I'm learning at the keyboard from some pretty damn good people.

Thanks guys