Undersized bore Rolling Block

I don't know what happened to the original thread, but it got hosed somehow.
If the Administrator gets it back, maybe he can add this post to the end of it, and delete this 'replacement thread'.

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Originally Posted by GregP42

Yes, there is about .075 from the end of the case to the start of the rifling, that is what makes it a bear.

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I just looked (again) at the Clymer site. All of the 45's have throats (called 'freebore' on that site) of .04 to .10 inches. That 'long one' is on the .45-90 Winchester reamer.
The .45-70 Government is shown as .05"

Now, I have read 'a million' posts on the Shiloh site (and others) about long range ammo and bullets, and many of those guys use 'factory designs' such as the Lyman Postell (and others).

Those that do don't seem to have any trouble packing sufficient powder under 525+ grain bullets...and you have to figure their throats are .025 shorter than yours.

Are you using a drop tube and a powder compression die?
How deep are your bullets seated?

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I had not thought about Shaver, does he do good work?

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I don't have enough first-hand information to answer that completely.

I first contacted him looking for Pedersoli-specific information because I wanted to know the dimensions of a Pedersoli chamber. He is THE Pedersoli gunsmith in this country. During our conversations, he said he had converted many .45-70's to .45-90 when I asked about that aspect.

But, he thinks the Pedersoli chamber is not all it could be...and does not stock a reamer which can duplicate it. That was rather disappointing to me, since I was interested in using the new PGT bullet. But, as a novice who had not yet even bought a gun, I decided to trust in his experience.

He has a widespread, and very good, reputation as a gunsmith...especially on BPCR-type guns...as well as being an accomplished shooter.

The (used) rifle I decided on was being offered by a gunshop in Missouri, and Shaver resides in that state. So, I had it sent to him for the modification...and he sent it on to me in Montana.

Does he do good work?
Well, the gun was reassembled with no sign that it had ever been dismantled. That's a one good indication. The barrel is unmarked, and the flats are perfectly aligned with the receiver.

As to the quality of the new chamber...I can't say.
I have not fired it enough to pass judgement on whether it will shoot accurately...but I plan to start working on that in earnest very soon.

Now you know all I know about Lee Shaver.

On another front...
I was just reading a thread on the (actual) BPCR site that you might be interested in. http://groups.msn.com/BPCR/general.m...68977372879739
(If you can't get to that link, let me know. I will copy it and email it to you.)

They are talking about a bullet that might be just what you are looking for.
CM

Thanks CM, that gives me some to think about.

The .075 is ok, but the bore is so undersize I can only have as much of the boolit stickout out past that point that is smaller than the bore. I have been deep seating my paper patched boolits, but I can seat the Lee 500-3R normally almost as it is all undersize on the nose.

Greg

GregP42,
I wish your original post had not been lost.
You mentioned your powder charge and bullet weight...as well as the distance you want to shoot. But, I can't remember what you said.

I do know that your remarks started me off in the following direction, so I will post the information I had been preparing.

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Originally Posted by GregP42

I can seat the Lee 500-3R normally almost as it is all undersize on the nose.

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I'll ask again...How deep are you seating bullets?

Here's the deal...
A guy named Wolf wrote a book about loading the .45-70 which is highly regarded by BCPR shooters. I don't have the book, but I copied the formula for figuring the probable maximum charge for the .45-70. It also works well for the longer .45's.

Find the depth of your case.
Subtract the bullet seating depth (including wad thickness).
Multiply the result by 10.

That gives you the number of empty tenths of an inch under the bullet.
In other words, it is your case capacity expressed in tenths of an inch of powder column height.

Then, figure a maximum charge is 5.3 grains of powder for each tenth of an inch.
*Note - This is all based on scale-weighed charges...not thrown from from a muzzleloader's measure calibrated in 'water grains'.

Using some guess-timation, I come up with this set of figures for your cartridge:

Case Depth .... 1.905"
Seat Depth ..... 0.500"
Column .......... 1.405"
In Tenths ........ 14

14 (tenths) X 5.3 (grains) = 74.2 grains of powder for a maximum load under a bullet that requires .500" to seat.

If you can't get (at least) 65 grains in your case, you must not be packing it in very tight. That is where the drop tube and/or compression die come into play.
CM

CM,

I am at work right now so I will have to measure when I get home, but the 510g paper patched was all in the case except for .075 that was wrapped, the part ahead of the wrapped section was smaller than bore dia. but there was almost an inch of the boolit in the case, I will measure when I get home in the morning. As for the Lee boolits, they are seated just deep enough for me to get them in the chamber and close the block, both rounds have a .030 wad, then a grease cookie that is about .090 thick, and a sheet of paper to keep the cookie from migrating into the powder. I will measure the starline brass I am using and see how deep it is. So, tell me about this book, I haven't seen it yet, I have read most of Paul Matthews books for ideas and everything I can find on the net.

Greg

Ok now that I am home.

Case depth on an average of 10 cases is 1.885
The paper patched bullet is 1.322 for an average of 10 of them, of that .812 is in the case.

If I put a 457125 in the brass there is .400 of it outside of the case, so that makes .9 something inside the case (I have it loaded and can't get it to pull out right now.)

That is why I am only get 50 some grains in a case and that is compressed from a 30" drop tube poured real slow.

I have 1.885 - .030 - .812 - .090 = .953 !! and even less with the 457125.

With the Lee I only have .627 inside the case, so that leaves me with 1.138 of empty space, so say that leaves me 11.4 tenths, so 11.4 x 5.3 = 60.42

Now you see why I am thinking what would it do if I open up the throat on this thing.

And thanks for that formula, I can really use it when I start working more to figure out what I should be able to get in a case.

Greg

I hope a real expert...with some actual experience joins this thread...because my information is mostly 'book learnin'.
But here goes...

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Originally Posted by GregP42

Case depth on an average of 10 cases is 1.885

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OK, there is the baseline.

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The paper patched bullet is 1.322 for an average of 10 of them, of that .812 is in the case.

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It is absolutely true that everything I know about paper patch is what I've read. But your description sure sounds different than what I have picked up.

If I remember numbers correctly, a guy with a .450 bore would choose a bullet of .446 (or so). Two wraps of paper would bring that slug up to about groove diameter. He would then seat the bullet about a tenth of an inch into the case so he could pack a half pound of powder under it...and let the bullet stick up into the barrel as far as necessary...almost like breech seating, but the bullet and case are joined. It always struck me as a way to make a .45-70 into a .45-90 without rechambering.
Your PP bullet is seated MUCH further into the case than I would have thought.

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If I put a 457125 in the brass there is .400 of it outside of the case, so that makes .9 something inside the case (I have it loaded and can't get it to pull out right now.)

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That is the Government bullet, with the fat round nose and four grease grooves.
I am not surprised it fits tightly in an undersized bore, and with four grooves, it needs some depth. I am guessing it is simply not a good choice for your gun.
The NEI 347D that I mentioned looks almost identical to that bullet. It's round nose is 'skinnier' (.440") and it only has three grease grooves, but still weighs the same 500 grains as the 457125.
As I said, seated fully in the case with a .030 wad it requires .500".

BTW, grease cookies are needed with paper patched bullets because they don't have grooves. But grooved bullets don't need 'em unless your barrel is four feet long.

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That is why I am only get 50 some grains in a case and that is compressed from a 30" drop tube poured real slow.

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Here is a chance to get our 'terminology' on the same page.
Dropping powder through a drop tube 'settles' the powder more compactly into the case. With a really heavy charge, that enables you to get it all in there initially...and with the more normal charges it gets you a nice dense powder column.
You can accomplish the same thing with vibration, but most guys like drop tubes.

Compression' is what you do to the charge after it has been 'settled'.
Swiss powder is said to require little or no 'compression' while GOEX is said to need some. Compressing the charge, after it has been settled by drop tubing...'a little bit' - or up to 3 or 4 tenths...is common. How much is right depends on what your gun likes.

You will even see reports of guys who compress so much they have to be run loaded rounds through a full length sizing die to eliminate the swelled case walls.

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With the Lee I only have .627 inside the case, so that leaves me with 1.138 of empty space, so say that leaves me 11.4 tenths, so 11.4 x 5.3 = 60.42

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I'm pretty certain that will require 'compression' after 'settling'.
If you eliminate the grease cookie and paper separator you could probably pack in 3 to 5 more.

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Now you see why I am thinking what would it do if I open up the throat on this thing.

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Having the chamber worked on will probably cost around a hundred bucks...and you're stuck with the result, good or bad.
A different bullet mould can be had for about the same (or less) and you can always sell it if it doesn't work out.

As it happens, I saw a used NEI 347D on the Auction Arms site last night. It is an iron mould (mine is aluminum) and the price was either $40 or $50. It is an auction site, so you would have to register to bid, but the seller is one I have purchased from in the past. The mould looks new in the picture. Bought new from the NEI website, that mould would cost $135. If I can find it, I'll add a link to the item description before I post this.

Here's that link...
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...%20Mold%20347D

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And thanks for that formula, I can really use it when I start working more to figure out what I should be able to get in a case.

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I'll have to look around to see about that book by Wolf. Don't remember exactly where I ran across that.
CM

GregP42
I have a 45 throater, takes about 5 min to do the job, and an hour to make sure you want to. and about 30secs to do it wrong.
I shoot at TUSCO the second Sat of the month, Cross stick match.
Bring your gun and I will walk you thru the ins and outs of loading BP.

been shooting BPCR Sil since 88, 1988 that is.
pm me and maybe we can get together..

Chuck

CM,

The reason that the paper patched ones are so deep is that unpatched they are .450 and the bore is .447 or so right there. I have been using the grease cookie with the Lee because the Goex I have been using fouls real hard in the last 4 or 5 inches of the barrel if I don't, I know it is overkill with it, but without it is murder.

If you could find out the info on that book it would be great, and I will go look at that mold, hope it is still there right now.

Greg

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Originally Posted by GregP42

CM,

The reason that the paper patched ones are so deep is that unpatched they are .450 and the bore is .447 or so right there.

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Judging by what I've read, you should wrap some paper on a bullet that is about .444...of course, that would need a pretty small case mouth to hold it.

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I have been using the grease cookie with the Lee because the Goex I have been using fouls real hard in the last 4 or 5 inches of the barrel if I don't, I know it is overkill with it, but without it is murder.

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How long is your barrel?
What lube do you use?
How is the lube applied?
Does hot or cold barrel make any difference?

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If you could find out the info on that book it would be great,

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I have been unable to find the thread where I learned that formula, but I am sure that Wolf was the name of the author who wrote the book it came from. Therefore, I have to believe that it is the one available here http://www.the45-70book.com/

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and I will go look at that mold, hope it is still there right now.

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If you miss it, I might consider selling (or maybe working out a trade) of my 347D for your 457125...but I would need something 'to boot' if it was a trade. After all, this IS an NEI mould.
CM

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Originally Posted by montana_charlie

Judging by what I've read, you should wrap some paper on a bullet that is about .444...of course, that would need a pretty small case mouth to hold it.

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Yea, it is a real pain, but I can shoot them out of my H&R with them about to fall out of the case.

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How long is your barrel?
What lube do you use?
How is the lube applied?

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The barrel is only 28" long, the lube I am using is home made, beeswax, olive oil mix, I have been thinking about trying something else soon as I use up the last of what I have. I have been pan lubing the boolits, I am looking for another Lyman 45 sizer that I can devote to just the 45-70 and try strange lubes out in.

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I have been unable to find the thread where I learned that formula, but I am sure that Wolf was the name of the author who wrote the book it came from. Therefore, I have to believe that it is the one available here http://www.the45-70book.com/

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I will look at that site later tonight after I get back up, I got off work and decided to cast some then reload a couple hundred .41 mags.

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If you miss it, I might consider selling (or maybe working out a trade) of my 347D for your 457125...but I would need something 'to boot' if it was a trade. After this IS an NEI mould.
CM

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Thanks for the heads up on that mold, it is winging it's way here as we speak, I would have to keep the 457125 as the H&R BC seems to like it quite a bit better than the Lee mold. Again, thanks for the information and the tip about that mold, after it gets here and I cast some I will let you know how it works out.

Greg

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Originally Posted by GregP42

Thanks for the heads up on that mold, it is winging it's way here as we speak,

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My pleasure on the tip. I hope your gun likes it
I'm going to contact Bullet Lady (the seller) and brag about steering a customer her way. Maybe that will induce her to keep an eye out for a particular mould I have been wanting...to return the favor.

On your lube...the olive oil dilutes the beeswax so you get some 'softness', but maybe you also need an ingredient that adds some 'greasiness'...like beef tallow.
I'm no lube designer, but something like 50% beeswax, 30% olive oil, and 20% beef tallow might work better...

Heck, maybe you're the guinea pig to try my FGL. I have a pound of it made up, but haven't tried it, yet because my luber is full of SPG.
Look here...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...2&postcount=18
CM

ADDED -- I found the thread where I picked up that mention of the book by Wolf. That is Spence Wolf, so I bet the one I linked earlier is the right one.
Anyway, the 'source' is the fifth post in this thread at Shiloh...
http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=56159
CM