So, newbie but not newbie

Da Boy was asking about shooting my revolvers with black powder cartridges. The Uberti SAA probably would handle them Ok, but I'm not sure I want BP fouling in a modern wheelgun. He has cut his teeth on BP already, having his custom rifle and pistol, and having shot my BP revolvers;

https://i.imgur.com/0gqsx1h.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/wa0ONY8.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/R3gdQgr.jpg

So, he knows what it's like. I countered with maybe buying a cartridge conversion revolver, like the 1860 Mason versions, (reproduction of course!), and he said why not just get the 45 Colt conversion cylinder for the Uberti New Model Army, and shooting black powder cartridges because the gun was designed for black powder. I can't fault that logic!
By now you are asking, where the heck does all this rambling go...the point is I have plenty experience loading modern cartridges, and with black, even making paper cartridges for the New Model Army, (not MUCH experience, but I can make them work), but I have absolutely ZERO experience loading black powder cartridges of any kind. So, I ask thee, how good are the conversion kits, is it worth the money, would the factory conversions be a better idea, and if I were to load BP in brass, what load works best for a 45 Colt in your experience, for nothing but playing at the range?
We are just in the "playing with the idea" phase right now, BUT the tax refund means I might be able to afford something if I can find it at a decent price.
Thank you for your time and attention.

Colt SAA's shot black powder for nearly 4 decades before smokeless powders cames along. And that was with weaker steels than we have now. They are safe.

A colt cartridge will hold just less than 30 gr of 3f. You want the bullet to sit on the powder, no air space.

Yes sir, I understand it's safe in a good modern revolver, I was just looking for suggestions - is there specific equipment I need other than my regular reloading gear, and like mentioned about no air space, tips to keeping it fun and safe. So 29gr of FFFG is a good one for 45 Colt, good start right there. Sorry, I know, just a newbie, ask lots of dumb questions. Thank you for your replies.

It totally depends on how much precision you want. Those who are shooting long range BP use compression, I used some compression in my 44-40's when I was loading them with BP. You do want some compression just to make sure settling does not create air space. I was surprised at how powerful BP is.

I made my compression die out of an old seat die, used the seat stem filled with epoxy and filed flat as the compressor. It worked fine.

It would just be for range blasting, maybe 50 yards max. Thank you all for your help. Might get that conversion cylinder when they come back in stock.

Aren't there powder droppers made specifically for black powder? Seems I've seen that somewhere and its related to static? I'm in the same boat, have fooled with guns all my life but no experience at all with loading cartridges with black powder. As much as it tempts me every time I see the Lone Ranger blasting big clouds of smoke over Silver's head with his Colt SAA I just can't imagine having all that corrosive soot all over and inside my guns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 35 Rem

Aren't there powder droppers made specifically for black powder? Seems I've seen that somewhere and its related to static? I'm in the same boat, have fooled with guns all my life but no experience at all with loading cartridges with black powder. As much as it tempts me every time I see the Lone Ranger blasting big clouds of smoke over Silver's head with his Colt SAA I just can't imagine having all that corrosive soot all over and inside my guns.

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make a scoop measure out of an old brass case, just cut / file it down to the right level (about 36 grains I would guess - thats what I load in my 44/40)

it always intrigues me how you 'mericans dislike cleaning your guns so much - black powder is an easy clean

I started out loading black in my Nagant pistol just because I had some powder I needed to use up. Put in enough powder to bring it up to the bottom of the boolit, as normally seated, then seat and crimp like normal from there. It was surprisingly easy to work with and seemed powerful enough. Be sure to bring a jar of soapy water to drop the cases in; brass gets really cruddy.

In Elmer Keith's book Sixguns he recommended that beginners loading for center fire pistols use black powder since it was easier to measure.

Wayne

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 35 Rem

Aren't there powder droppers made specifically for black powder? Seems I've seen that somewhere and its related to static? I'm in the same boat, have fooled with guns all my life but no experience at all with loading cartridges with black powder. As much as it tempts me every time I see the Lone Ranger blasting big clouds of smoke over Silver's head with his Colt SAA I just can't imagine having all that corrosive soot all over and inside my guns.

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I suppose there are but I've never used one. The odd thing is I notice more powder 'clinging' to the inside of the measure when I load smokeless; as if BP is less likely to accumulate static in the first place.
Anyway, BP fouling has never bothered either of my 45-70s or my M1894 .357 years ago just for the heckuvit. Never had a problem. You just have to clean your guns properly and even that isn't rocket science or witchcraft.

I like 2ff in 45 colt.

I think I have some home made 2F, but my factory powder is all 3F. Conversion cylinder should be in tomorrow, and sizing die should be here maybe the next day. So this weekend I will powdercoat some of the 255gr Lee FP I cast up and see how it goes.
So, no air space is key - fill the case with enough powder to get a little "crunch" when loading the bullet. I'll try 29gr of 3F to start.
As for cleaning, black powder is VERY easy to clean, as far as I am concerned, and using the Remington New Model Army clone, a revolver already made for black, that should make it even easier.

You're going to need a black powder lube. Powder coating isn't going to work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by indian joe

make a scoop measure out of an old brass case, just cut / file it down to the right level (about 36 grains I would guess - thats what I load in my 44/40)

it always intrigues me how you 'mericans dislike cleaning your guns so much - black powder is an easy clean

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Joe the reason is most aren't using real black powder, they're using substitute and it's harder to clean out and it's immediately aggressive to brass, like promptly destructive.

To make matters worse, professional liars who twist context have gone on record to bloat the claim of how aggressive real black powder fouling is.

Of course the context is comparing substitute powder fouling aggressiveness to old black powder cartridge primers and percussion caps made of extremely aggressive mercury compound. Not real black powder lit off by modern non-corrosive primers.

So yeah, we have this delusion inspired by professional lies that all things black powder are going to rust the gun and crack the brass.

The lie is professionally set. Many will never be convinced otherwise. It is what it is.

That '58 Remington he is shooting is more difficult to clean than your Uberti SAA. OK, not difficult but more involved. It looks like you have already bought a conversion cylinder, but at any rate the SAA and black powder loaded 45 Colt cartridges are made for each other.

You've gotten all the tips - clean the brass well after shooting (I use a decap die then wet tumble with pins), use some compression, soft bullets, black powder lube, and go to town.

Why not powder coat? What lube should I use on the bullets? Usually when I load black I just have a wad under the ball. Only lubes I have are either PC or Lee Liquid Alox.

Good BP lube helps keep the fouling soft so it gets blown out of the muzzle and not accumulate in the bore as a hard crust. When you get the hard buildup, it resizes the bullets and both kills accuracy and leads the bore. Powder coat won't help you there. Soft, BP compatible lube and soft lead bullets are your friends here. There are many lubes that will work for that, personally I like Gatofeo #1. 1 part mutton tallow, 1 part Gulf canning wax and 1/2 part beeswax. Cheap and easy to make, it's good for cartridges, revolvers, and patch lube for rifles.

I use Gato Feo too. My blend is as per the formula save for the tallow, I use hamburger fat. I strain it first through a sieve then through cotton T-shirt fabric I use for patches. This removes the fine particles of meat.

It still requires back to back settling and cooling. The gelatin settles to the bottom of the container and must be removed. It takes 5 or 6 heating, cooling and scraping cycles to remove all the gelatin from the bottom otherwise the gelatin will cause the tallow to go rancid.

I also boil the tallow one final time prior to storage or mixing to avoid mold. Once prepared, I mix in the usual quantities and get perfectly suitable and shelf stable bullet lube. I've have most stored in plastic containers in the fridge for long term but keep about 2lbs stored in mason jars on the reloading bench and in my Lyman 45 lube sizer for 3 years no with no rot or going rancid.

I'd say that's a pretty good track record. Best lube I've used.

I do dip my Johnston and Dow revolver cartridges in it as well as soak pillow ticking in it for my muzzleloaders.
Pan lubing works too though I'm not a fan of it. I prefer lube sizing.

Oh I forgot about greased felt wads. Those work like magic. They lube, clean and gas check all in one pass. They work very well in .45 Colt keeping the boys lightweight Rossi carbines running accurately while reducing charges and thus the recoil to something not as stout as a fully loaded hunting charge.

So, that's the question - if i load a standard wad in the case for lube...will the lube cause the powder to go bad over time? Not like I am going to load a ton of these to stash, doubt black powder cartridges will be a huge factor in my end of the world planning. ;) I do have quite a few of the standard lubed patches in for the 44, should fit right down in the case.
I have to say that the process you guys use to make home made bullet lube sounds pretty complicated for a casual BP loader.

For lube in my BP guns I use a 50/50 beeswax to unsalted Crisco by weight and add olive oil to get the consistency like I want, say 3 - 7 TBS to 1 lb of mix. And half a green crayon for color and 8 drops of fake vanilla just cause. I melt and blend it in an old pyrex measuring cup in the microwave.

When shooting round balls I use an 1/8" felt wad soaked in the lube under the ball.

IS there such a thing as "salted Crisco"? Maybe is....
I have seen Butter flavored Crisco. I bet that has salt.

I would avoid the buttered version unless you want your lube to do double duty and smear it on your morning toast too.

I use a softer mix of this, about equal parts (BW-Crisco-oil) to spread over the balls of my Cap-N-Ball revolvers. Pure Crisco is too soft.

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Originally Posted by armoredman

So, that's the question - if i load a standard wad in the case for lube...will the lube cause the powder to go bad over time? Not like I am going to load a ton of these to stash, doubt black powder cartridges will be a huge factor in my end of the world planning. ;) I do have quite a few of the standard lubed patches in for the 44, should fit right down in the case.
I have to say that the process you guys use to make home made bullet lube sounds pretty complicated for a casual BP loader.

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Skip the refinement. Make your own lube or just buy SPG.

As to inside cartridge lube wads, I do like everyone else and use 2 thin waxed card wads to sandwich the greased felt. Cut them from whatever, milk cartons, waxed paper plates, plastic jugs...the list is endless. The point is they're water and grease proof so powder contamination isn't an issue nor having the greased felt (or cookie) stuck to the base of the bullet.

Or skip wads entirely and invest in an NOE "big lube" style bullet mold.

Interesting idea. Thank you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by armoredman

So, that's the question - if i load a standard wad in the case for lube...will the lube cause the powder to go bad over time? Not like I am going to load a ton of these to stash, doubt black powder cartridges will be a huge factor in my end of the world planning. ;) I do have quite a few of the standard lubed patches in for the 44, should fit right down in the case.
I have to say that the process you guys use to make home made bullet lube sounds pretty complicated for a casual BP loader.

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yre overthinking this
plus getting un neccessary complex advice from guys who been doin this so long they forgot the KISS principle
we are plinkin with a pistol
1) if you have a boolit with any kind of decent lube grooves - forget about puttin anything down in the case except for black powder - forget lubed wads and forget lube cookies under the boolit
2) black powder lube is so simple its ridiculous ----some beeswax to stiffen it ----35 to 50 % depending on weather conditions - then the rest is some kind of non mineral oil/ soft grease / fat - ---olive oil, neatsfoot oil, jojoba oil, mutton fat, lard, crisco, bear grease , pick one at random - it will work
make a mix that will set into a soft cake at room temp sos it will stay in the grooves on a boolit
now
A) fill case to appropriate height with powder ( about where the bottom lube groove is on a seated boolit )
B) compress powder column to seated boolit height, (most neck expander dies will work for this) - so you can set the boolit in the case by hand and it sits on the powder in the right position for crimping.
C) seat a grease lubed boolit (make sure the grooves are full of lube ) and crimp
D) go shoot !!!!

if you wanna refine the process a bit can put a thin card wad (juice box or cereal pack) over the powder
if your gun fouls up quick doing this - the most likely culprit is too small of lube grooves on the boolitAttachment 325995Attachment 325996 couple examples 45 colt boolit has 2 skinny shallow lube grooves and a good crimp groove - my opinion not a good blackpowder boolit (might get away with it ok but bigger lube grooves would be better) other boolit has two better sze lube grooves - a bit wider , deeper = more lube. Still not excessive but better.

Ok, thank you very much.

Indian Joe, I tried to say the same thing but you said it better. This stuff is easy, just has a couple of rules to follow.

OK, I have some wax bullets a buddy gave me that I melted to make bullet lube for the paper cartridges;

https://i.imgur.com/FbT2gS4.jpg

which is a mix of the beeswax and olive oil. I will try melting that and lubing the bullet grooves on the cast bullet I have, this one.

https://i.imgur.com/6zCUoAS.jpg

I'll widen the heck out of a case to use as a cookie cutter, then load it and see how it goes.

I have an NOE 454-241-RF mold for 45 Colt black powder loads. NOE currently shows them in stock. I have some loaded up for my Uberti 1873 but haven't shot them yet. This mold has a huge lube groove and carries a ton of lube. I'm sure you wouldn't run out of lube even in a rifle barrel with this boolit. No need to mess with wads, lube cookies, etc. Just fill the case with enough BP to get 1/16 to 1/8 in. compression.

Unfortunately, my wife just left her employment to get her breast reconstruction after her 0one year anniversary of the mastectomy, so my toy funds just shrank way down. So while I would love a new NOE mold, (I have one, which is excellent), that probably won't happen any time soon.
I will try what I said I have above, and the other mold that most excellent buddy just loaned me, a 200gr Lee SWC boolit. I think it has standard lube grooves, though.
Thank you all for your help.

It will be just fine in the revolver. Lack of lube is much more of an issue in rifles.

So here is what I did, in pictures.
I didn't have a cookie cutter for the BP lube, so boolits were dipped, then sized with a Lee push through sizer. Lube is a beeswax/olive oil/something I can't remember lube I used with paper cartridges, so I know it works OK in black powder.
Yes, that is a cat food can full of lube. That is my hot plate I use to warm up molds.
https://i.imgur.com/HAhuJaD.jpg

They look goofy.

https://i.imgur.com/wUocKro.jpg

I also powdercoated and sized other boolits for smokeless loading.

https://i.imgur.com/n4TYFxj.jpg

Dipped boolits sized - what a mess. However, it looks like they got the grooves lubed.

https://i.imgur.com/AlwfA68.jpg

First ever BP cartridges loaded. I loaded 10 total, 5 with 29, 5 with 29.5gr Olde Eynsford 3F.

https://i.imgur.com/L3ZeimA.jpg

Perfect fit.

https://i.imgur.com/iSKQim2.jpg

Shorter COAL for a shorter cylinder

https://i.imgur.com/AI2BkAq.jpg

And at the end of all this, I looked at the other mold my buddy sent to try - THAT looks like a black powder lube groove! Gonna cast some of them up this weekend, I guess.

https://i.imgur.com/xP3v9V6.jpg

Now off to the range ASAP.

Critique away.

So, I tried them. Was not impressed.

It was fun, I'll give it that. Da Boy squeezing off his 5.

https://i.imgur.com/IWYxNlo.jpg

And then grabbed this great photo, when he decided to sit down.

https://i.imgur.com/TerMI78.jpg

But the accuracy of the black powder rounds were lacking. Out of 5 at 11 yards, one wasn't even on the paper.

https://i.imgur.com/TZeykfU.jpg

The second target was worse, with one keyholing. I am guessing that the lube was not enough, and I will give the black powder loads one more try with the other boolit.

By way of comparison, the 45 Colt powder coated smokeless powder loads worked decent enough. At least I kept them all on the paper!

https://i.imgur.com/YeMH2zh.jpg

Thank you for reading - I think I lost most everyone by now, though.

Next time try a full load of 35 grains and soft lead if those were hard.

I am casting some different boolits today. I used the 29 grain starting load from a suggestion from another person.

Are you going to try the softer lead for the boolits that you will shoot with BP

Yes, cast these up with the range Lead, which is as close to dead soft as I can get. NICE big lube groove.
https://i.imgur.com/73ykrfd.jpg

Those slugs look good.
You are using them for shooting out of the cartridge in both of your pistols.
Will that 200 grainer work as a conical in your BP revolver cylinder.

I don't know, but it's worth exploring! Yes, I PC'd some of them last night and loaded up testers with AA#2 for the conversion cylinder and the Judge.