Critique my hunting load please!

I shoot a 358 win that MBT built for me. It likes the RCBS 35-200 with Carnauba red lube. Finally found a good load yesterday under 40.5 grains of 3031. It put 5 shots into .85 at 100 yards. Velocity is about 2175 fps. It is cast out of 95% lead, 3% antimony, 2 % tin for about 12-13 bhn. I am thinking my limit for whitetail will be 250 yards. At that distance it should still have 900+fpe and 1350+ fps. I am thinking it should still expand at that distance. Thoughts? My numbers sound right? I was not sure what BC that bullet is but I think I remember seeing it put at .24 or so. So from what I have figured, it looks like I have a 250 yard deer gun. That is on paper. Any real world experience to either confirm or deny what I am figuring? Please feel free to critique. The reason for figuring this out is that I hope to do some red tag hunting in the near future, and some of those farms have a lot of open space around them!

tagged for later. You are ahead of me in the 358 load development.

probably stop expanding at more like 175 to 200 yds, one of the things I learned is it takes a bit more speed than youd think

Does a 357 magnum kill deer?

Hope I get my 35 Whelen to shoot that tight. Do you know what shoot tight at 100 yards. I’d be trying 200 and 250 before I attempt an animal at that distance to make sure your groups hold up.

With a bullet that big I wouldn't worry about expansion. Just have a nice meplat and your golden.

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What Rc said. That particular bullet has a wonderful meplat. That trumps expansion every time, IMO.

that load sounds like it duplicate .35rem factory loads.
correct me if I am wrong but 35rem factory load is 200gr @ 2000fps?
Nothing at all wrong with 35rem.
trajectory/ballistics should be real close to each other.
My guess is to take some 5gal buckets of water or sand or loose dirt and shoot 'em at 250yards, check and see expansion for your alloy.

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Originally Posted by Jevyod

My numbers sound right? I was not sure what BC that bullet is but I think I remember seeing it put at .24 or so.

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Most mold makers that publish estimated BCs are as wildly optimistic now as big-named jacketed bullet makers were 40 years ago. On this one, though, the Lee version shows an estimated BC of .18ish, which is probably more inline with reality than the .24 you mentioned. If you're out in the wide open where you can watch a deer run 100 yards after the shot, you might be OK out to 250 yards, but if I were you I'd plan on 150 yards, maybe 200 absolute max.

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Originally Posted by kens

that load sounds like it duplicate .35rem factory loads.
correct me if I am wrong but 35rem factory load is 200gr @ 2000fps?
Nothing at all wrong with 35rem.
trajectory/ballistics should be real close to each other.
My guess is to take some 5gal buckets of water or sand or loose dirt and shoot 'em at 250yards, check and see expansion for your alloy.

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Yep, i’m hoping to pump my Whelen up to 2600 to 2800 FPS with 200 grainers, PC, and GC with acceptable accuracy. I want to knock the snot out of whatever I hit with it.

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Originally Posted by Tripplebeards

Hope I get my 35 Whelen to shoot that tight. Do you know what shoot tight at 100 yards. I’d be trying 200 and 250 before I attempt an animal at that distance to make sure your groups hold up.

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I am certainly planning on shooting at that distance at the range first.

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Originally Posted by Jevyod

I shoot a 358 win that MBT built for me. It likes the RCBS 35-200 with Carnauba red lube. Finally found a good load yesterday under 40.5 grains of 3031. It put 5 shots into .85 at 100 yards. Velocity is about 2175 fps. It is cast out of 95% lead, 3% antimony, 2 % tin for about 12-13 bhn. I am thinking my limit for whitetail will be 250 yards. At that distance it should still have 900+fpe and 1350+ fps. I am thinking it should still expand at that distance. Thoughts? My numbers sound right? I was not sure what BC that bullet is but I think I remember seeing it put at .24 or so. So from what I have figured, it looks like I have a 250 yard deer gun. That is on paper. Any real world experience to either confirm or deny what I am figuring? Please feel free to critique. The reason for figuring this out is that I hope to do some red tag hunting in the near future, and some of those farms have a lot of open space around them!

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You picked an outstanding boolit and shoot the same BHN on a Lee tester ,my marlin @ ranged 176 yds ruined the far side shoulder an a nice doe .How ever mine was a 35 Rem 24 gr of 2400 . Shoot that same load any time I hunt that gun , the cal is different but mine with same boolit and less speed gets it done . The doe is the furthest I"ve shot so not exactly what you asked but that is one great boolit/Ed

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Originally Posted by bmortell

probably stop expanding at more like 175 to 200 yds, one of the things I learned is it takes a bit more speed than youd think

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Not with the correct BHN and that is determined by testing at maximum yardage you"ll shoot .The beauty of casting is you are responsible for boolit hardness ,do your R+D and it works every time (Expansion ) not your hitting the target :bigsmyl2:

I don't what your hunting situation is, but ethically shooting a 250 yd shot on an animal, I need a solid rest, little wind, and an animal that properly "presents" itself. In my situation that almost never happens. The residual velocity at that range is something you have to take into account for boolit expansion. If you want to truly use it for game at that distance, shoot jugs of water at that distance and collect a boolit. If you can't hit the jugs, you shouldn't be shooting game at that distance. I shoot the same boolit from a 35 Rem. I run it about 1750fps roughly the same hardness. I limit my shots to 100 yds. I can't tell that I have much expansion even at that range.

Different bullet, but my alloy is 50/50 WW/Pure +1% tin, so about 98/1/1. Hardness should be about 11ish? RCBS .40 180 CM at just over 1700 fps. Not having access to ballistic gel I use cardboard boxes stacked with newspaper just tight enough to stand up and then soaked with water. At 35 yds I get about 20 to 24 inches of penetration depending on bullet expansion which is sometimes the I get almost none and sometimes the nose will 'rivet'. On the other hand with the large meplat I am not worried about it. With my lower starting velocity and bullet weight (compared to yours) coupled with the low BC I see my load as 75yds max.

I think there's nothing wrong with your load, but you may want to rethink your max range. I agree with the suggestion that you shoot it at 200 and 250 to see what you and the rifle really can do before assuming based on your 100 yard results. I too am thinking 150 to 175 is more realistic.

Don't under estimate that cast boolit. My son has taken a spike elk with a Williams receiver sight at 198 yards ranged, with that RCBS 35-200. Cast and water quenched from mold weighing 216, approximately 16 bnh muzzle velocity 2354 fps. Two shots, one complete pass through the other stopped in the offside leg of the elk. Elk stopped within 10 steps. Boolit mushroomed and deformed after hitting ribs and leg bone. Retained weight just under 200 grains if I remember correctly.

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Sounds like more testing is in order! That is ok....it is a fun load and gun to shoot!! Will try the milk jug test at 200 once, and maybe 250.

Get you some wet print paper of some kinds- try about 6-8" and shoot it at 100 yards. Or slow the load down and shoot at 50-75 yards... thiis should help you about the expanation... if pc'd it will have better chance to expand

NOE molds says their version of the 200 gr .358 flat point has a BC of .24 so personally I'd use that or shoot over your chrono at 100 yards and go from there
My all round rifle has been since the 70's a .358 win Vanguard... but I wanted a bit more distance so I have used jsp. I have shot cast a lot but not much hunting.. let us know how it goes

I never spent much time overthinking all the BC and meplat stuff.

My big thing is accuracy and shot placement.
With your cal. & speeds, if you hit a deer in a 'good' spot, even with a Barne's RN solid, it will die very quickly.

Check out pictures of the African big & dangerous game cartridges that are made just for killing.
Most for single shot or double rifles, and have been on the job about a hundred years:
They are all wide, heavy, and round nose.

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Originally Posted by Rcmaveric

With a bullet that big I wouldn't worry about expansion. Just have a nice meplat and your golden.

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Originally Posted by sharps4590

What Rc said. That particular bullet has a wonderful meplat. That trumps expansion every time, IMO.

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Exactly. A FN or RN projectile will cause significant wound cavitation in the soft lung tissue. Just put one in the boiler room.

Oh boy. Put a hard 35 caliber round nose bullet through the lungs and you had better go find some hiking boots, and some good dogs.

I put the numbers into the Hornady ballistics calculator. At 250 yards, I come up with 1475 fps for a BC of .25, and 1550 for a BC of .30. It is likely that bullet is somewhere in there. Lets call it 1500 fps. I think you will be just fine. If you want to be sure, shoot a nice soft dirt/clay backstop at 250 yards, and dig up the bullets. That will give you a good idea on how well they expand.

Very effective for me cast 358 Win Savage 110CL . Load:
WW cases/WLRprimer/43 gr 3031/ Lyman 358318 250 gr RN cast in 9+1COWW/Lino, Paper Patched.
Seated out to mag length. velocity 2340fps.
One shot one kill on many North Woods WI big bucks. Mostly under 100yds. I would shoot this load up to 200yds.
Favorite shot: thru both shoulders. they drop on the spot. good thru and thru exit hole, always.
"Can eat almost up to the bullet hole"
beltfed/arnie

I'd like to add on to my previous statement. I was replying to the comment that even a non-expanding round nose is a good killer. I maintain that it is not, at least not until you get into a bigger bore size. Either that or shoot a very long bullet that will tumble inside.

If you shoot a bullet fast like beltfed does above, it does not matter what kind of bullet nose you use if it expands.

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Originally Posted by megasupermagnum

I'd like to add on to my previous statement. I was replying to the comment that even a non-expanding round nose is a good killer. I maintain that it is not, at least not until you get into a bigger bore size. Either that or shoot a very long bullet that will tumble inside.

If you shoot a bullet fast like beltfed does above, it does not matter what kind of bullet nose you use if it expands.

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Interesting that you say that. I have experienced something quite different.

Honestly, I wouldn’t have believed it myself if I hadn’t had it play out over and over in front of my eyes.

When I lived in GA, I killed numerous deer and hogs with .30 and .35 cal hard cast boolits (both FN and RN). The vast majority went 0 – 15 yds after the shot. A couple overachievers went like 50 yds, but were easy enough to find.

Years ago when I elected to graduate from pistol to high-powered rifle cast boolit shooting, I was a bit wary of leading. I started with a Rem M788 in .308 using a Lyman 311291 mold. I wanted a very hard projectile and settled on 75-25% mix of clip-on wheel weights and linotype which I then oven heat treated. I didn’t have a hardness tester back then, but these were very hard indeed (velocity was 2,000 FPS).

Sometimes I would catch a shoulder, but often the shot was just behind the shoulder punching through both lungs like a bow shot. Death was always quick.

What I found upon gutting surprised me. The wound cavitation through the soft lung tissue was always significant. On a quartering shot the cast boolit would tunnel through the fibrous muscle tissue without the typical bloodshot effect of expanding high velocity jacketed bullets (thus the adage “you can eat right up to the hole”).

Yet when traversing through the lungs, filled with oxygenated blood, the effect is quite different. A flat nosed or round nosed bullet passing through soft lung tissue causes wound cavitation that creates impressive damage and blood loss. Keep in mind that many of these shots were behind the shoulders, so bone fragments were not paying a role. This was just the boolit channel itself

Also, the effect of the blunt meplat hammering the animal was evident. If it didn’t drop in it’s tracks, the critter would usually stagger a short distance and tip over. I can honestly say that I have never lost a deer to a cast boolit shot.

I don’t use that hard of a bullet anymore (mostly #2 Lyman now), but those early experiences made me a believer. When hunting with cast boolits, shot placement and meplat is king. It is for me anyway. Your experience may vary, but I am rolling with what I watched unfold repeatedly.

At 2000 fps you will get expansion of even very hard alloys. I believe that is what you are seeing. Shoot that same bullet at 1200 fps and you won't have good luck. Cast bullets are fantastic hunting bullets. I personally believe them to be superior to jacketed as far as killing.

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Originally Posted by megasupermagnum

At 2000 fps you will get expansion of even very hard alloys. I believe that is what you are seeing. Shoot that same bullet at 1200 fps and you won't have good luck. Cast bullets are fantastic hunting bullets. I personally believe them to be superior to jacketed as far as killing.

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One day I will make a point to capture one of those hard bullets in an appropriate medium to see what they look like. I wouldn't think zipping through a whitetail chest cavity would cause much expansion if any given the high BHN. I have been surprised before though, so it will be an interesting experiment.

Please post a picture, next season, of you deer
Fine load
Mike

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Originally Posted by RugerFan

One day I will make a point to capture one of those hard bullets in an appropriate medium to see what they look like. I wouldn't think zipping through a whitetail chest cavity would cause much expansion if any given the high BHN. I have been surprised before though, so it will be an interesting experiment.

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I would like to see it too. I don't know what your exact setup you have is. I'm only sharing my opinion.

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Originally Posted by megasupermagnum

I would like to see it too. I don't know what your exact setup you have is. I'm only sharing my opinion.

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Me as well. Totally get it. The vast array of experiences posted here are rather captivating.

Something U might consider is make a DAB... my speak for dual alloy bullet. Make a portion of the nose of the bullet out of very soft metal and the rest out of some what harder. This is lets you have bnh you need for the performance of the load in the barrel and almost sure expansion. Normally any mold can be used for this. As much as I like cast hp's I started long ago with the dabs
Under cast boolit molds maintenance and design Bruce B has a sticky on this. The last word on what your load will do is your bullet and bullet shape matters, flat nose ie larger meplat will tend make larger holes. PCing helps it seems overall, as does hollow point, as does your alloy. Have fun and the .358 win is a great cal for cast bullets. U got wonderful groups, so you certainty are going in the right direction

My only critique is that you need to trim your expectations back to 200 yards max. That slug and load will kill anything that walks this side of the world. Range determination is the problem past 200 yards.

i use a rcbs 200gr fn gc in my 35/30 win. its going at 1726fps with 20.0gr of 2400/dacron and my alloy is lyman #2 with a smidge of tin(15-ish bhn). i've only shot one doe at 30+/- yards and she "ran" about 15 - 20 yards more. the 200gr went behind the shoulder, broke 1 rib, took out both lungs, took out another rib and it exited. the exit wound was around 3/4 +/-". the bottom half of the lungs were mush and there was no bloodshot meat to speak of.

i'd take down to 200 yards also. in my area, a 200+ yard shot is about impossible. a 100 yard shot is probable. under 50 yards is more like it.

If you can hit a 6-inch paper plate at 250 yards consistently from field positions, everything less than that is gravy. A rangefinder and a drop chart taped to your stock will help a lot. I'm sure it will still shoot through a deer at that distance.

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The BC of that bullet design (NOE) is about .24, if my memory serves me correctly. I have range tested it in my 35-30.

Years ago I shot a 250 grain lfn (about .21 BC) out of 35 whelen at 2350 fps. 50/50 HT, and then the nose torch annealed to make it soft. 290 yards on a small fawn, broadside. It ran maybe 30 yards and piled up.

Out to 200 is pretty easy, in my experience. But past that it can start to get tricky with cast bullets.

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Originally Posted by Rcmaveric

With a bullet that big I wouldn't worry about expansion. Just have a nice meplat and your golden.

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This exactly. I worry far more about meplat size than expansion. I think most people would be surprised that their bullets don’t expand anywhere near as much as they think.


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