44-40 Black Powder...a little something different

I wanted to go shoot about 100 test cartridges today but with weather creeping in, it just keeps getting worse. Supposed to get 12" to 24" of snow here in NC. I was going to wait until I shot these to share but figured I would go ahead and share what I have done already.

Not trying to reinvent an inferior bullet, I wanted to try and load an as close to an 1873 load as I could. The Winchester 1873 cartridge bullet appears to be a 200gr swaged bullet with two lube grooves and no crimp groove. According to the Winchester 1875 catalog this is what is inside. If this tests nicely, I will use some original late 1870's or early 1880's unheadstamped semi-baloonhead cases.
Attachment 231701

As late as 1875, we see this bullet on the second style box label. This particular label is the later label that does not wrap around the box end which would date it as to the last of that style right at 1875 when Winchester started sealing their boxes...note the external lube groove. If this is indeed the same swaged bullets offered in the catalog, this means the crimp is about midway of the foreword driving bad leaving the first lube grove exposed and not having a crimp groove.
Attachment 231703

The current 200gr Magma bullet closest resembles this bullet design from what I can fine. The Ideal/Lyman 42798 is too long.
Attachment 231704

I decided to seat the bullet and crimp just a tad past midway of the forward driving band. I used an RCBS Cowboy die two step roll crimp. I thought the lead would be too hard but it works well.

Before I go any further we should all know that I am just playing around and there is not enough bullet lube on these for many shots without fowling...like I said, probably an inferior design.

I used new, unsized Starline brass. In the bullet photo on the box and in the 1875 catalog, the cartridge show no sign of a bottleneck. New Starline brass shows no sign of a bottleneck and chambers just fine if not resized. I also used WLP primers.

The bullet is a Lasercast hard cast Magma design. I removed the lube, ran it through my lubesizer to .429 and added lube to the crimp groove for the exposed second lube groove.
Attachment 231705

I used 40gr of Swiss FFG and unsettled, the powder was even with the case mouth (#7 and #8). tap settled to .12" (#9). I used my modified bullet seating die to compress the powder .10" (#10). This gives me .22" to seat the bullet without any pressure on top of the bullet meplat...or just enough pressure to round the edges of the meplat.
Attachment 231706

Here are 5 loaded cartridges. The center cartridge has no lube in the exposed lube groove. The others have yet to have the excessive lube wiped off...using care as to not remove the external lube from the lube groove.
Attachment 231707

Showing the finished load but not cleaned.
Attachment 231708

Finished cartridge on it's side to resemble a late 1873 cartridge.
Attachment 231709

When I get a chance to run these through the chronograph and strain gauge, I will post the results.

Looks good. Should be fun.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

What I failed to include was the measurements. AOL will be too long for probably anything but the Winchester 73'...or at least my Uberti model. These will not work in either of my Marlins. I also don't expect much accuracy.

The AOL is 1.647 and just barely ejects from the 73' Does not touch the lands. I used an empty case to where the bullet is seated by fingers. I just insert the bullet and let the action push the case in and if it hits the lands, the pressure will seat the bullet to a default length. I back it off a tad more and use the seating depth. The AOL in the 73' is very user friendly!! An AOL of 1.66 will not eject from my 73'...but still does not touch the lands.

I don.t know if this mold is still made but I have a lyman 429215 it is copy of the marlin bullet. it is 215 gr. gas checked. I have loaded a lot of them with black powder in the .44-40. they were shot in a repro. henery in n-ssa .

What is this RCBS 2-step crimp die you speak of ?

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Originally Posted by Walks

What is this RCBS 2-step crimp die you speak of ?

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Some people do not like to use the roll crimp and replace the roll crimp feature with a Lee Factory Crimp die. At one point years ago some folks referred to the roll crimp as the second step in the bullet seating process...hence "two-step". I guess it's just how the language changes from year to year.

Seems a strange way to crimp, or refer to it. I guess because I'm using a set of OLD Lyman All-American Dies from the early 1960's that I have a lot less trouble loading my .44WCF ammo then just about anyone I met Cowboy Shooting. My die set reduces the case small enough that the bullet creates a "bulge" in the case when seated. it also has a .424dia on the bottom of the two-step M-Die Expander.
I am able to seat/crimp at the same time. BP or Smokeless.

None of my more modern die sets will size a case correctly to fit in my 1909 COLT SAA. I have 1981 & 1988 RCBS( 2 DIFFERENT STK # 'S ), 1999 REDDING, 2003 HORNADY & I even bought a Lee set about 5yrs ago.

I loaded BP for my 1st 2 years of Cowboy Action Shooting.

Using 30grs 3F under a Milk carton wad, .44 Wonder Wad & #42798. Cast 20/1 - sized .428 & Lubed with SPG or Crisco if I was out of SPG, tried T/C Bore Butter too, a tad expensive. I also put a bit of extra lube between wad and bullet about every 10th round.

So I can't quite understand what you are trying to do ?

Are you just trying to make ammo Realistic looking to the 1870's Time Period ?

Not sure why the op is not using a Black powder lube with that Swiss BP?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Walks

So I can't quite understand what you are trying to do ?

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Just having fun!!!

I have two dies with no names that really shrink up on the resize. Can you ID them?
Attachment 231754

There is no expander die

The resize die resizes the case neck to a length of about .40" while most modern dies resize the length of the neck to only about .30". The .40" allows the Lyman 427098 and like bullets to have complete shank retention. Modern 200gr Magma type bullets only need the .30". There are a few topics out there about this method.
Attachment 231757

Article...but I didn't have these dies at the time.
https://www.44winchestercenterfireca...t-history-pt-1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MT Chambers

Not sure why the op is not using a Black powder lube with that Swiss BP?

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I am, take another look. I am not using the bullet with the blue lube. The fourth photo shows the bullet with BP lube. I also said this just above the photo;

"I removed the lube, ran it through my lubesizer to .429 and added lube to the crimp groove for the exposed second lube groove."

This O.A.L. of yours is a bit confusing. I find that my UBERTI copies of the 1966/'73 will handle an O.A.L. of 1.600" maximum.

My MARLIN 1894 & WINCHESTER 1892 will handle an O.A.L. of 1.620" without a problem.

A loaded round that long will jam up a UBERTI 1866/'73.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Walks

This O.A.L. of yours is a bit confusing. I find that my UBERTI copies of the 1966/'73 will handle an O.A.L. of 1.600" maximum.

My MARLIN 1894 & WINCHESTER 1892 will handle an O.A.L. of 1.620" without a problem.

A loaded round that long will jam up a UBERTI 1866/'73.

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not mine, I checked... 1.66 will jam, 1.64 is fine...Uberti 73' Imported by Cabela's.
However, I would not want to try them in a shoot-out!!!

For my rifle......AOL of 1.654 is the max I would use hunting and less than that if I needed reliable, no frills cycling!!! A single shot of 1.66 works just fine as long as it is shot...if not shot, manual release from the ejector is mandatory.

FINALLY after years of searching I finally found a photo...an ex-ray to be exact, of the 1873' 44 WCF PROTOTYPE cartridge valued at between $4,000 and $5,000.

The bullet does appear to be of the 200gr-225gr heeled style (but not heeled) I am still awaiting conformation. Here is the kicker...the case is only 1.177" long rather than 1,300.

Answered a lot of questions but creates more questions.

I don't want to share the photo until I have written approval.

Using the case length of 1.177" of the Prototype and a Lyman 427098 bullet, the results shockingly resemble the the 44 Winchester with exposed lube grove on the .44 Winchester Second Style ammunition box. A case could still hold 40gr of compressed powder BUT it would overflow the shorter case if not poured in from a drop tube or some form of settling.
Attachment 231794

Savvy,, thank you ( and others ), really like the pics. ,, been think'n about shorting some of my cases to get uniform OAL using 427098's,,( good enough for you,, good enough for me ) .

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .

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Originally Posted by Hootmix

Savvy,, thank you ( and others ), really like the pics. ,, been think'n about shorting some of my cases to get uniform OAL using 427098's,,( good enough for you,, good enough for me ) .

coffee's ready ,, Hootmix .

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I am still playing with it. I crushed the starline case on accident so I cut down an RP case...a bit stronger. I cut down my old Lee bullet seating die and it roll crimps perfect into the forward driving band!

I'll get a pic of it asap

Here is the RP case, everything else is the same. I started playing with powder charges but no measurements yet. I like the RP case so I might cut down about 9 more for testing in the test barrel then the 73' with some Goex FFFG. It that works out, I will use whats left of my Swiss FFG for target groups.

Probably re-inventing an inferior cartridge but golly it's so much fun!!!
Attachment 231802

I trim all my R-P brass to 1.285", it's reserved for my '66/'73's. I have 3 different Bullets I use; a MAGMA 225gr. a 210gr RCBS and a 200gr #42798.

With the old LYMAN dies, I'm able to crimp on the Ogive of each bullet, maintaining an O.A.L. for each bullet between 1.588" - 1.600".

I've been looking at the huge selection of .44 bullets that ACCURATE offers in the 200gr - 230gr range.

I'd like to have a short nosed bullet with a crimping groove for when the 12,000 bullets I have cast and lubed run out. Sometime the middle of the next decade.

And I want a 4-5cav mold.

Got ten of'em ready for the range!!!

RP Brass...trimmed 1.184
WLP's
cast 427098
Goex FFFG .20 compression. (Three look to be .21")

AOL 1.600
#5, #7 and #8 are seated a tad deeper.
Attachment 231809

If shooting BP, forget about the crimp. The bullet is sitting on the powder charge and will not telescope any deeper. Just iron the flare out of the case mouth and drive on. The crimp you are showing is excessive, even for smokeless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Cash

If shooting BP, forget about the crimp. The bullet is sitting on the powder charge and will not telescope any deeper. Just iron the flare out of the case mouth and drive on. The crimp you are showing is excessive, even for smokeless.

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Its not there to keep it from telescoping, its there to keep it from falling out. It may be "showing" excessive but it is not in this particular case. I had to modify a Lee seating die and if the crimp is not solid, the bullet sticks to the plunger...I gotta check that out closer.

I got written permission to share the photo.

Here is the 44 Winchester Prototype Cartridge for the Winchester 73'
Attachment 231816
It is offered for sale for $4,000

Attachment 231817
The "dimpled" Milbank Primer

The cartridge was very short lived. It is said that some of the first rifles to be delivered were delayed until the boxer primed cartridges were "released".
Attachment 231818

The exposed lube groove is on this second style box
Attachment 231819

Jack - John Kort's post on the 44-40 if you don't have it. John will not be posting anymore - my close friend died 23 Mar 2018 ... http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Powder-Journey

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Originally Posted by John Boy

Jack - John Kort's post on the 44-40 if you don't have it. John will not be posting anymore - my close friend died 23 Mar 2018 ... http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Powder-Journey

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Yes, he is missed. I am glad to see you post, have not seen you for some time John Boy!!!

Shortly before he passed he gave me permission to share his work. We were so fortunate to have him on these forums. I learned so much from him.
https://www.44winchestercenterfireca....com/john-kort

Jack - nice website ... I finally had a 44-40 follow me home, an 1878 JM Marlin Ballard. Been loading it with 6.2gr of ETR7, a clone of John's load - 6.2/Titegroup – favorite plinking, target load – 1,150 f.p.s. and 35gr of Swiss FFg and John's Accurate bullet

Thank you for sharing his knowledge. Sure learn a lot here!
I just started loading for my S&W DA 44-40 yesterday; just got a couple hundred 200 gr boolits to try out it out, from Whyte Leather works.
I picked up the pace on the 10th round, and while starting the lead into the case mouth with my thumb, bulged the brass, sure enough as forewarned here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John Boy

Jack - nice website ... I finally had a 44-40 follow me home, an 1878 JM Marlin Ballard. Been loading it with 6.2gr of ETR7, a clone of John's load - 6.2/Titegroup – favorite plinking, target load – 1,150 f.p.s. and 35gr of Swiss FFg and John's Accurate bullet

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Thanks John Boy, it has taken me a very long time to get this together. I owe a lot of it to John Kort and Mr Harris.

Otteray...it's a fun adventure!!! When I used to shoot CAS I ordered all my 38 Snakebites from Whyte. It gave the 38 the same AOL as the 357 for the Marlin 1894C

Shot these things today in my MGM barrel @ 100 yards

Now I see why Winchester did not produce them. As expected, the lack of neck retention makes for shotgun like hits on the target at 100 yards. Nuff said! However...no chrono cause it was raining. 10 shot groups inside 24" square.

Lately, I have been reloading 44-40 using an original Winchester mold and a Winchester tong tool. The mold throws RNFP boolits at 201 grains using soft lead. The ammo feeds and shoots well in my C&B conversion cylinders, USFA '73, Rossi '92, and '75 Remington repro.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mazo kid

Lately, I have been reloading 44-40 using an original Winchester mold and a Winchester tong tool. The mold throws RNFP boolits at 201 grains using soft lead. The ammo feeds and shoots well in my C&B conversion cylinders, USFA '73, Rossi '92, and '74 Remington repro.

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I would really like to see the mold and the bullet it drops as well as the tool!!! Love that stuff!

Not real good pictures, but here is what I use.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7920/...680da7be_z.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4837/...e852e62b_z.jpg

I like it!!!!!!

Thank you. I do like the more leisurely pace, but if I need to crank out a lot, I will use the press.