wondering if that's doable, particularly for a .40-70 s/s PPB chamber. i know the current chamber dimensions will be the crux of the matter.
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wondering if that's doable, particularly for a .40-70 s/s PPB chamber. i know the current chamber dimensions will be the crux of the matter.
Not unless you rebarrel the rifle. The parent case of the 40-65 is the 45-70 which has a LOT bigger rim than the 40-70ss. I have rifles in both calibers and the 40-65 is a lot easier to live with. The 40-70 can be quirky and hard to get to shoot accurately, and it can be inconsistent. That, coupled with the fact that cases for the 40-70 are expensive, and frequently unavailable really tips the scales in favor of the 40-65.
thanx for the scoop, sharpsguy. was hoping to get a .40 ppb chamber without rebarreling.
sharps guy is 100% correct, I will add the 40-70 SS can and will shoot with any 40 cal b/p cartridge.Be prepared to try everything/anything to get target grade accuracy, hunting accuracy is not hard to obtain.Most new production chambers for 40-70 SS is for greasers @45 deg. transitions.40-70 SS was not designed for greasers it was a p.p. deal during it's heyday, get a 40-70 SS with P.P. chamber and patch to groove or bore they shoot very well a bit faster twist than 1:16 could benefit long heavier bullets.
There's really no reason why a standard chamber won't shoot paper patch just fine. If nothing else have a 7 degree lead cut in the chamber you have now and go on with life.
thanx randy. i'm just starting to work up a ppb load with this pedersoli .40-65 and its greaser chamber and had wishful thinking to get it magically transformed to a pb chamber. the current load is a BACO JM393425 slick @ 422 grains with 1:20 alloy over a .050 card wad, over 65.2 grains of swiss 1-1/2f, with .030 compression. will try .060 ldpe wad next.
it can be done but the work involved unless you are doing it your self is very expensive.
you bore out your existing chamber press in a sleeve and chamber it to the smaller cartage.
A 45 degree chamber end will shoot a PP with out a problem. If you want a more gentle transition for the throat it will cost around 90. to $100. with shipping to get a throating reamer made. The best way is to make a chamber cast time and date it when you made the cast and send it to PT&G and tell them what you want for the transition from the chamber wall 3 degree or more or even a compound like say 5 degree/1.5 or what ever. You can cut the change yourself with out using a lathe with proper precautions and common sense to support the shank of the reamer so it is kept on center axis so you don't cut a eccentric neck.
I don't call the gentle transition a PP chamber I call it a lead bullet chamber :)
rfd--You are shooting a bullet that is too heavy. I have a Shiloh 40-65 AND a 40-65 Pedersoli that is just like yours. Both will shoot the same paper patch load. The bullet is a 385 grain round nose out of a mold by Steve Brooks. Cases are Remington, and the powder is 60 grains of Goex 2f set off by a CCI BR2 primer.
Powder is drop tubed into the case, then compressed with a compression die so that it is .460 from the top of the powder to the case mouth. A wad cut from a milk carton goes on top of the powder, then a 3/16 thick grease cookie followed by another card wad cut from a milk carton. The bullet is placed on the wad and held in place by a taper crimp out of a 40 cal. Lyman taper crimp die. The bullet sits .200 down in the case.
The bullet is .396 diameter AFTER patching, and can be loaded and shot dirty without wiping. You would be amazed at how accurate this load is and how hard it hits.
I believe 40-70 is normally made from 30-40 brass ( maybe 303 brass I'm working from memory here) or 405 win basic brass, depending on how the rim thickness is cut.
i don't like or want to deal with grease cookies.
for a light short distance (200yds) .45-70 load, i got around that by using a pair of .025" milk carton wads, and pair of 1/8" hard felt wads, and another pair of milk carton wads, all punched out with a cornell press die and a light swiss 1-1/2f 60 grain lightly compressed powder column, which benched at a 200yd 1 moa with an accurate 415 grain slick that patched to .449+". this was also in the grease chambered pedersoli roller and i was kinda surprised at that short bullet's accuracy. i would have thought that a longer bullet would be better, to get more of it into the rifling and past the freebore.
however, for the .40-65, i want try try for a good full power load and a heavy, long bullet. i shot in a 200yd windy match with it yesterday and though my shooting was not up to my par at least all bullets left round holes in the paper. this was a 65 grain load under that 422 grain slick with just a pair of ,025" milk carton wads and about .030" compression, using starline fire formed brass. i just built some cartridges with 68 grains of swiss 1-1/2f under a .060" ldpe wad with .060" compression. lots of other combinations to test out, half the fun of these guns and cartridges, right? :)
I'm still using a grease cookie under my PP bullets. In my 40-65 with I believe the same bullet you are shooting it is capable of cleaning the rams at 500yds.( Last time I shot them I put 20 rds on a 6" gong at 200 yds. with gong to spare). In dry summer heat keeping fouling soft is hard for me. My load is 62 grns Olde ensforde, .060 napa rubber fiber wad compressed to needed depth. .090 spg grease cookie. playing card wad and 2 tracing paper wads. then the PP 422 grn bullet hand seated. I can fire 15-18 rounds with out cleaning.
I have tried no cookie and wiping but its more than I can do in the time limits.
I forgot I also wipe the patched bullets with a very light coat of JoHoBa oil before seating.
For questions like this a piece of old-fashioned graph paper and a pencil can be useful.
Suit yourself, but the original Sharps factory used a 3/16 grease cookie in their paper patched ammo, and it seemed to work pretty well. Good luck with re inventing the wheel--you're probably gonna need it.
why would i need to take up powder space with a grease cookie when i'm running bore wipers between each shot taken?
That's true and the Creedmore / long range shooter wiped between shots. Shutzen shooters loaded o case for the whole match, breec seated the bullets and wiped between shots. Theres many techniques out there that have been used succsefully. Its more what how you want to do it and what time constraints allow for.
You might be able to make it work by cutting off most or all of the old chamber. The chamber neck might be salvageable. If you have a long barrel it might be ok to cut off 2.1 inches if there is still enough beef to rethread.
I will add that I don't think anyone in his right mind would want a true original chamber for a .40-70 SS.
A coworker friend had an original Remington Hepburn in .40-70 SS.
When brass was turned to permit a groove diameter bullet his case mouths were like FOIL only .003 thick. When the chamber neck was bored to give .004 clearance for 9.3x74R brass accuracy was excellent with grease groove bullets.
not only did creedmoor shooters wipe between shots, they breech seated as well, tuning for accuracy by adjusting the airgap between the bullet and the wad.
those that did not often muzzle loaded their cartridge rifles.
as for the guy that rechambered an original hepburn chamber, things like torment and ****ation come to mind.
another piece of history down the drain with a totally ruined original.
being too lazy to shoot the gun as it was designed to be shot is no excuse.
keeping the original barrel untouched and replacing it with another, differently chambered, is the only acceptable way to deal with that situation.
anyone in their right mind would shoot a true original chambered 40/70 - the way it was meant to be.
keep safe,
bruce.
rfd is the reason to change the .40-65 to the .40-70 to gain more powder capacity? There is always the option to deepen the chamber with a throating reamer to a .40-72 or 82. To make a .40-70 out of .40-65 change the barrel is the best option.
Bruce I agree with you not changing the throat on a original, but if the barrel is junk it is an option for a rebore if the barrel has enough diameter. The strange thing I do just toe opposite with my chambers :) I change the modern 45 degree wall to the original gentle transition :)
You keep mentioning the air gap breach seating I have never seen this mentioned in the old writings. I do a lot of breach seating but the case is in contact with the bullet base/no air gap/ well today I gave it a try to see if there is any benefit doing this and I must say that I did not see any change what so ever but I did not push it past 1/8". I wonder if their thought back then was to get that bullet base past the transition of the chamber end into the throat so the base of the bullet did not have to get swaged back down to groove depth"?????????
The only breech seating with an air gap I've seen mentioned in the old writings and notes were the schuetzen guys.
kurt,
i often wonder if breech seating is about a relationship between the leade angle and the base of the bullet, or some other thing.
not only would you avoid swaging a bumped up base back down, but finning, cupping, and such of the base might also be helped.
i cannot say breech seating is better in all rifles, but certainly works in both mine, 40 and 45 cals.
i went from touching, increasing in 0.010 increments.
the article by/about major c w hinman is in arms and the man
the following link talks about this, and also mentions milton farrow's reloading kit, whick includes a breech seater.
www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22018
don,
surprized you don't remember this as it has been well discussed in your forum.
you might be able to find the link there to the actual hinman article.
somewhere on your forum or shiloh kenny w found the original article.
general,
the problem is with this real stuff that some guys are fixated on bison, and let target shooting stuff go in 1 ear and out the other.
today fixed ammo, greasers, and neck tension is all anyone wants to think about, at the expense of history.
keep safe,
bruce.
Bruce yes there are some that breech seated, but I still don't recall any that left airspace, except for the schuetzen shooters.
Many of the original Creedmoor shooters would not shoot anything but factory ammunition, due to the brass not holding up for reloads. If they didn't shoot the fixed factory ammunition they used factory new cases.
When you get right down to it, the number of long range target shooters wasn't very large. With exception of a few mentions here and there, they didn't get much press. When the New York rifle club took the Irish challenge they tried very hard to entice some of the better known riflemen off of the buffalo plains to come back east to shoot the match, as they were the only ones with real experience at long range. None of them took the bait.
Yes lots of this stuff was lost to history. A good example is I asked an old gentleman that lived thru the transition from big bore black powder rifles to todays smaller bore smokeless cartridges what he missed the most from back then. His answer shocked me a bit as his reply was "kings semi smokeless".
We have came a long way back towards what the ODG's did, but there's a lot of work to be done that may never get accomplished. I know of several that have tried to make the conversion from High-power and F class to bpcr, and just don't quite make it. Black powder and smokeless shooting are all together different ventures, and if one thinks about it , it's not hard to figure out why the 30 wcf cartridge followed by the 30 US here, and the 303 brit on the other sides of the two big ponds made the blackpowder cartridges disappear practically over nite in historical timeline.
i only load/shoot ppb's, so thinking to get rid of any greaser freebore and get the case mouth as close to the rifling, with maybe a 7* angle. it was a fleeting thought that this topic has put to rest as not realistic. as is, it's just fine and i was overthinking something what ain't broke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lead pot
Quote:
Many of the original Creedmoor shooters would not shoot anything but factory ammunition, due to the brass not holding up for reloads. If they didn't shoot the fixed factory ammunition they used factory new cases.
don, just curious as to where you got this info - if printed matter, i'd love the source so i can read up. thanx!Quote:
When the New York rifle club took the Irish challenge they tried very hard to entice some of the better known riflemen off of the buffalo plains to come back east to shoot the match, as they were the only ones with real experience at long range. None of them took the bait.
The bit about the factory ammo is in several sources from books of the time. Perry's Modern Observation of Modern Rifle shooting 3rd edition in particular.
WHD Dodge covers it a little bit in his writings about transitioning from the big Creedmoor guns to the 30 US. Roberts in his Schuetzen Rifle book covers some of the stuff about the long range shooting, and really hits it home when he talks about the death of the long range shooting and the jump in popularity of the Schuetzen type matches. Funny how history does repeat itself, we see much the same thing going on today with the over taking of ranges by the black gun crowd, and the decline in bpcr shooters and matches.
thank you, don. Attachment 219304
Robert here is what I use for taking out a 45 degree chamber end. The left is a .45 with a 5 degree compound and the right is for a .40 4 degree 1.5 compound. Using one of these throating reamers you need a bushing that sits in the rim recess and partly tight in the chamber and a proper fitting pilot in the bore so everything is in alignment so you don't cut a eccentric case neck and all you will do is change the 45 degree transition of the chamber end with a funnel of and a degree you want or a compound that will also change the lead angle on the lands to any degree. You can also use this reamer to lengthen the chamber say from a .40-65 to as long as a .40-82 or anything in between.
But also a lot of rifles have been screwed up using one of these throating reamers with out using a back bushing and a depth stop like I make for mine.......Kurt
Attachment 219308Attachment 219309
kurt, dunno much about chamber reamers, but yours look well thought out quite functional. thanx!
rfd,
Wondering what kind of shooting you intend for your 40 cal ?
Your use of the 422 gr bullet implies use for Sillywet?
Otherwise, short range? 100,200,etc
Midrange?
Long range?
200 to 600 yards.
yes guys used factory ammo, and in the early times some of it seems to have included a grease wad.
the wad seems to have been dumped fairly early.
today some target shooters still use factory ammo too, but most reload for better accuracy and economy.
guys also bought factory projectiles, patched or unpatched.
those might have been as good or better than cast ones if you did not have a hammer swage and the time to use one.
by the time fixed ammo was having the bullet about 1/8" in the case, factory ammo would have required some careful handling.
breech seating leaves no history of ammo, for obvious reasons.
then some muzzle loaded, from the beginning to the end, also leaving no evidence of ammo, but there is in print.
it is interesting reading of the pitfalls of pouring powder down a barrel having forgotten to put a primed case in the chamber first.
muzzle loading a breech loader does seem to pose some safety questions, as unlike a capping muzzle loader, there is a live primer there from the get go.
keep safe,
bruce.
Bruce you do know the cartridge guys that muzzle loaded used a system much like the muzzle loader guys, only they didn't pour the powder down the barrel, they used the short starter etc, and then had a stop on the ram rod to stop the bullet at the spot they wanted, then inserted the primed and charged case when ready to fire.
[smilie=s:I can certainly understand this first hand. I was a Hi-master in both across the course and Palma before I took up cast bullet silhouette and later BP silhouette. Learning all the new skills and nuances required to load quality ammo, wind doping and just plain trigger time can be daunting. That said I wish I had started this game 20 years ago, it's a lot of fun and with many great individuals willing to help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don McDowell
Attachment 219484Attachment 219485
rfd, your existing 40-65 can do some amazing things.
PIC of 40-72 and 40-65 s, and PIC of 40-65 group at 100yds/PP bullet over 74.5gr Swiss 1.5 at 1400fps
This 40-65 has shot a 99/3x at 800yds with my bullets.
So you may wish to continue to exercise it as is
beltfed/arnie
Oh, the 40-72 is same as the 40-70SS, except 2.58" case instead of 2.5" length case
beltfed/arnie
and the 40/2.5 was often referred to as the 40/65.
keep safe,
bruce.
don, as you say that was one way they did it.
i have also read of pouring powder down the barrel and forgetting to put a case in the chamber first.
i know which way woild be safer on a public range.
my own original hiwall has been speedlocked, part of which included removing the 1/2 cock notch!
absolutely no way to load that until you are absolutely ready to shoot.
actually loading the bullet from the muzzle and then chambering a charged case is just a harder way of breech seating.
possibly that is how breech seating came about?
keep safe,
bruce.
thanx arnie!Quote:
Originally Posted by beltfed
yep, will continue to work up as good a ppb load as i can for the .40-65 cartridge in it's current grease chamber.
rfd
Important thing is my bullets are about 1.325" long for the 16 twist,
and, elliptical ogive/smooth PP, so they are then stabile out to long range.
Whereas the popular, and accurate for midrange bullet, the Lyman 410663
is just about 1.4" long but will go "squirrelly" at long range from a 16 twist.
beltfed/arnie