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I have never replaced a trigger before but I am having problems with one of my rifles. I am just curious as to how much a good trigger affects accuracy. Like to here how improving a trigger has improved a otherwise bad grouping rifle from anyone that has experience this issue.
If I could be the smart aleck, changing a trigger does nothing to improve accuracy, only improves your ability to achieve accuracy.
The problem with saying good vs bad, is that it's so very subjective with regards to what you like.
1 vs. 2 stage, light vs average weight trigger pull, and the intended use of the gun. For range and fun, go crazy. For carry, home defense or hunting I prefer factory.
What's the issue you're having?
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If the rifle groups bad, a different trigger isn't going to change a darned thing. Look elsewhere for the problem. Check benchrest technique. Some people can shoot well from a bench, some can't.
is the trigger gritty feeling or had to pull .. is it inconsistent to break point ?
I had heard of "long gravelly" triggers but until I had a Remington Model 14 I didn't really understand .
I would say it's ok to feel one move but not know the break .
I have a 65 and 8? Savages with factory triggers and I can't feel the difference between them and the Jeager on a Gew 98 .
If the break is clean and under 5# until you spend a lot of time or money or both odds are against seeing a measurable improvement .
Maybe I better look for some other problem. The trigger is on a Savage 110 made about 1992. Breaks around 8 lb. It is in 250 Savage Shaw Barrel. Groups are looking like 5 inches at 100 yards. Going to try a different powder. Trying H380 with 100 gr bullets at the moment. Have tried different brands of bullets
I do not have this problem with any of my other rifles. Starting to pull my hair out!!
I sort of wondered about twist rate as relates to bullet weight that will work best. Did a quick Google and found this https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=125050
This person found lighter weight bullet and less than 90% of max load of 4381 so maybe bullet weight is something to look into. I know in a Ruger mini-14 with a fast twist 55 grain was accurate enough to keep all on a 12" target at ~ 50 to 100 meters. With 70 grain 8 inch target with most in the center of a 6 inch circle. Not exactly tack driving but then mini-14 is not exactly known for 1 inch groups as it comes from the factory. Point is I got a marked improvement by changing bullet weight because the twist rate at 1:7 was too fast to be optimal for 55 grain. That 15 grain difference wasn't much but made a significant difference.
Good luck. Hopefully this is useful rather than just providing a rabbit trail to lead you off into the weeds.
I have a 308 that doesn't care as long as the bullet is 175gr or less . Excluding vld , gmx ,ttsx I'm to cheap to even try those in it .
Meanwhile it's 06' sister has a speed limit .....
No logic for the why it just is .
I know that even asking about twist is going to get blasted by someone but what is the twist ?
Are you shooting enough bullet for it ? Or too much ?
25s have come in twists from 9-14" . A 14 will be just enough for a 2800 + fps 87 spitzer/spire point . My Dad has I suspect a 12 that shoots 117s of any flavor into qt milk cartons out to 300yd if you do your part but even blunt 120s open up to 3-4" at 100 in a bull barrel 700 BDL 25-06' circa 1972 .
I have a mould for a 90 gr FP if you want to try some . I might even have some on hand .
I would suspect a bedding for barrel crown issue. Is it a wood stock or a plastic one?
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Before someone chimes in and blames your ER Shaw Barrel, I have to say I have owned probably 8 or so barrels of that brand and they have all been excellent. If it is a pre accutrigger model, it can be adjusted down to around 4 pounds safely. Regarding twist, last time I looked all ER Shaw 25 caliber barrels are one in 10 inch twist. Theoretically it should shoot all bullet weights well.
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Once you can shoot and hold a good trigger say 2-3 pounds and crisp is a real help in off hand shooting and pistol shooting. Since I shoot mostly early west and muzzleloaders I do a lot with set triggers and have gotten somewhat spoiled. My 45 and my 38 both have excellent triggers from the factory but they are old pre lawyer guns.
Wood Stock. also going to check on the barrel twist.
Well it is a 1-10 twist
I think the part of your comment about trying some other loads was a good one. Have found that I'm unlikely to hit the "sweet spot" right out of the gate. Most of my loads are a result of making a ladder of loads from low to high in about 2/10 of a grain in pistol and .5 grain in rifle. Along with a few different bullet weights. But I generally cast what is a well known "stock" bullet. Or close to it. But even there a 148 and 158 grain one is better than the other for a given powder and load.
A good trigger feels like a glass rod breaking under your finger. No creep grit or really noticeable travel. As to weight, being a High power service rifle shooter Ive shot a lot of triggers at 4 3/4 bs or a little more ( NRA rules state service rifle must lift 4 1/2lb weight). A lot of shooters handling my service rifles M1A/M14 and AR15 estimate them at 2-2 1/2 lbs due to short travel and glass smooth. As to single stage and 2 stage that's more shooter preference than any thing. I shoot a lot of 2 stage triggers and like them in offhand stages as I can pre load it t the second stage and hold to the perfect sight picture for the release. Another option is the set trigger, not as popular as it used to be but still available. Trigger pull can be set up to your likes a field gun used in all conditions maybe 4 1/-5 Lbs to allow for rough terrain and cold weather. A target gun for position shooting 2- 1/2 lbs is normal unless rules specify otherwise. Bench rest is around 2-6 ounces. Thru stoning polishing and sometimes spring swaps and adjusting sears a very good trigger can be produced.
A perfect trigger should feel like the breaking of a glass rod when you pull it, and should sort of surprise you when it breaks.
Simple: retrofit it with an accu-trigger.Quote:
Originally Posted by brstevns
or a Rifle Basix trigger. Either choice a good one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldon
It is pre accu trigger, so maybe I can adjust it down. Going to check the bedding out as well
I either work and lighten every trigger I own or replace them with a timney or something similar. Just about every target, varmint, predator, and big game bolt action rifle I own wears a HS prescion full length aluminum bedded block stock. The ones that don't get acraglassed in the action area and an inch to inch and a half in front of the tang. I have 7 Remington 700's and everyone set up like this will cloverleaf with the correct load. Check your action screws and make sure the scope mounts aren't loose.
I haven't taken my accutrigger apart on my savage 210 but if it's like my Ruger Americans "accutype" you can see how I took it apart and polished it in this thread...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...82#post4057782
The original Savage trigger can be adjusted to a good pull. I have never seen a .250 Savage that won't shoot the 75 gr Sierra HP with H414. Adjust the trigger, put a business card in the barrel channel first-if that doesn't work put the card under the front receiver ring to free float the barrel. And check all the screws on rifle and scope- maybe try another scope. And check that crown. My wife's Sako round top/ ER Shaw .250 Sav is fully glass bedded in a laminate stock and it will shoot 5 different weight bullets into the same group of less than 2" at 100 yds. Our pet load is the 87 gr Speer Hot Cor at 3000 fps and it is a deer dropper. Good luck to you- advise us of your progress!
Leave business cards wedged between the barrel and the stock and shoot it to see if your groups tighten up. If so that that has told me I've had bedding issues in the past. The best I've done with accraglassing wood stocks is normally .5" groups and a full length aluminum bedded block stock I just bolted the action to without doing any type of bedding at all and can get cloverleaves. About a $250 investment on the stock and then it's up to finding the right load.
Trigger pull is usually more of a problem when offhand shooting. Shooting off a bench with sandbags the trigger pull has less effect. Some old military weapons have a very hard trigger pull, like a few of the old Remington rolling blocks with about 20 pounds . I get about one a month with a heavy trigger pull and most can be fixed. On target rifles I try for 2-3 pounds but hunting rifle should be a bit more.
BrStevens, Check the action bedding and action screw tension to start with, also to the barrels bedding and tension in the stock. The business card or a playing card cut to add some up tension may help. In the channel look for uneven bearing on one side or uneven gaps. A piece of paper around the barrel in the stock can be slid to show touching points. One thing I like with the playing cards is they don't swell or shrink with humidity changes. Another place to look is in the recoil lugs bearing area sides and front should be free and back surface bearing. Another is to look for "spongy wood" in the bedding areas. A little accra Glass, or better Bisonite bedding compound may greatly improve things. I like 2 layers of thin masking tape on sides and front of recoil lug and to cut the back out 1/8" ( this gives a good solid layer of epoxy to bear the recoil). I also remove some wood under the action and tang to give a little thicker layer of epoxy. The other is on each side and bottom I cut 1/8" wide 1/8" deep grooves to give more bite to the epoxy, a more mechanical bond to it. Once this is done the shim up front to determine the barrels tension and bed in a 2-3" pad up front.
IMHO an 8 lb trigger pull is not conducive to accurate shooting, especially with a sporter weight rifle from the bench or any other shooting position. Granted an experienced shooter can "manage" such a trigger but even then he will not do his best shooting with it. The old Savage 110s trigger can easily be adjusted down to a manageable 2 1/2 to 3 lb pull. I suggest you do that first. Then if the groupimng doesn't improve look at the other things mentioned.
For offhand pistol shooting I want 2-3 pounds and crisp. A rifle should have a maximum of 4 pounds and 3 is what I like. A shotgun should be crisp and 5 pounds is about right. No sense fighting a 8-10 pound rough pull. A crisp pull of 6 0r so pounds is tolerable but no more than that and it has to be crisp.
A pre accu-trigger Savage trigger can be safely and easily adjusted to a clean 3 - 3-1/2 pound pull, but that is not the cause of 8" groups.
Adjust it while you are looking for the accuracy problems.
My 116 trigger adjusted to 3.5 lbs ,its a pre acutrigger .Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldon
Groups as bad as you mentioned are either a bad barrel or a bad scope or mounting job.
Once we had a guy here that was having trouble with his .257 TCU Contender barrel. He could not hit a thing and the entire group touched on everything thing possible and none of them caused the problem. I suggested he check his barrel. He said it looked perfect. I said did you check the bore diameter with a lead bullet............
He came back later and said he dropped a .257 bullet into the chamber and it hit the floor. He had barrel made by a top company using a 6.5mm barrel blank.
There is a lot of good advise on this thread already, but I will add my experience and hope that it is beneficial.
As has been stated, the trigger is important, but only if the rest of the platform is stable, and the load you are using is accurate for the rifle in question.
Personally, this is how I would proceed.
I would bed the rifle's action, using pillars and fiberglass epoxy on the guard screw locations and fiberglass bedding around the edges of the action, and solidly around the recoil lug location. There are several really good write-ups online to show you how to do this successfully. Once the action is firmly bedded and torqued into place with proper torque, make sure that the barrel is floating for the length of the foreend of the stock. I usually use a business card or playing card to make sure nothing is touching.
Next ensure the scope is mounted securely and the mounts are firmly attached in place with locktite'd srews. You don't want them working loose. Some people go as far as to use epoxy between the mounts and the top of the action to ensure solid and tight fit. You would usually put release agent on the bottoms of the mounts and top of the action prior to placing epoxy, as it is just supposed to fill in any gaps that might be present to provide a solid attachment, although I have seem some people simply epoxy them in place solid, with screws. Personnally, I like to use the release agent, in case I ever want to take them off...
Make sure the rings fit the scope securely, and that the rings are aligned properly. When mounting the scope, be sure and use a light solvent to remove any oil or grease that might be present between the scope and rings, before clamping the rings on. When tightening the rings, do so evenly from side to side and front to back, and tighten to the appropriate torque. Again, I use locktite on these scope ring screws. Not much, but a little.
When sighting the scope in, be sure and take your time and adjust properly.
A note on the scope. Many times I have seen that the owner will purchase a lower end scope, thinking it will be fine. Sometimes this works out, sometimes not. If you purchase a reputable scope, you will not regret it later. It will aid your accuracy, not cause accuracy and repeatability problems down the road. Spend what will help you, not what is a problem later.
Be sure and inspect the crown of the rifle to ensure it is not scratched, or injured in any way. If it is, be sure and remedy this with appropriate action or with a good gunsmith. No amount of action work or scope stabilizing or stock bedding will cure a bad crown. Make sure it is perfect.
Now, you have a stable platform. Use an excellent rest when testing ammo for accuracy. Don't expect consistent accuracy from the top of a pickup hood, or resting over an old sleeping bag...develop a good procedure for accurate shooting of groups. Make it steady, and predictable, and repeatable. Learn to shoot accurately, there is a lot of information on the development of accurate technique available. Study it, and apply it.
When you develop an accurate load, which is an entire dialog on its own, you then can see if a decent trigger will help you.
If you have applied all the information above to your groups...it is likely a decent trigger will definitely help you. But, if you have not done what is above, a great trigger will not help much. It will just make the trigger break better, but the basic platform will still be inaccurate.
Accuracy is a systematic effort to eliminate variables in your platform, your rest, your optics, your ammo, and your technique. An excellent trigger helps, but will not overcome insufficient effort in the other areas.
$0.02
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