30-30...To AI or Not to AI?

Well, as the title says, I have an H&R Handi-Rifle and a Winchester 94 both in 30-30 Win. I also have a new 30-30 AI reamer and dies that I purchased for the H&R. I was contemplating rechambering both rifles to simplify reloading. However, I want to shoot cast exclusively so my question is does it make sense to do this? Is the AI version detrimental to shooting cast? I have pretty good results already with the 311041 in the Winny and the Ranch Dog 165-RF in the Handi. So is it worth it considering I have the dies and reamer already? Note there is no collector value to the Winchester as it's a 1974 model with no bluing left on the receiver. In fact, it was so ugly, I polished it and waxed it to make it look better. And it sure does look better now.

im not as skilled as you with terminology but i think i know what you mean. i have a buffalo classic in 45/70 and a cpa long range 45/70. the h and r/s chamber is a lot tighter than the cpa. cant shoot one in the other. i shoot slip fit paper patch in both. i was going to inlarge the h and r chamber but got to thinking that just decapping and resizeing will work just as good and so i did nothing but resizeing. they both shoot fantastic and resizeing die did the trick. when i used to keep the brass seperate and never resized it got to be a pain as to what was what. what ever you do it will be right, but i just now resize.

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Originally Posted by sawzall

Well, as the title says, I have an H&R Handi-Rifle and a Winchester 94 both in 30-30 Win. I also have a new 30-30 AI reamer and dies that I purchased for the H&R. I was contemplating rechambering both rifles to simplify reloading. However, I want to shoot cast exclusively so my question is does it make sense to do this? Is the AI version detrimental to shooting cast? I have pretty good results already with the 311041 in the Winny and the Ranch Dog 165-RF in the Handi. So is it worth it considering I have the dies and reamer already? Note there is no collector value to the Winchester as it's a 1974 model with no bluing left on the receiver. In fact, it was so ugly, I polished it and waxed it to make it look better. And it sure does look better now.

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Posting a quality photo of the reamer might get you some worth while opinions regarding accuracy potential. Depending on the reamer dimensions, you might need to make a reinvestment in boolit molds. Then again, I don't know what your goals are in terms of accuracy and velocity. I owned some M-94's that loved 311041, some 336's that loved RCBS 30-180-FN and one of the latter that only shot LBT 30-180-LFN well... so let's see what your new chamber would look like.

MJ

i too have a 30-30AI reamer... was thinking the exact same thing.

Win94 x2 and a few handi's and a couple 325's, and a couple 219's....

I don't see a downside with the AI in a 30-30

the AI still has 0.374 neck length. in a single shot, that is lots I'd think

in a lever, you just have to choose your boollits wisely if you want to keep the lube in the neck

I wanted to do this conversion for years but I never rented the reamer. If I had the reamer I surely would do the H&R and if I liked it I would do the other one. I never felt the need for more speed, but I liked the way most fellas said brass lasted longer and I am a sucker for things a little differant.

I must ask, will the deer be able to tell the difference?

YOU ask them!

Actually I'd hazard an answer that the answer might be yes. A little more velocity would cause more boolit upset, and more damage.

Save your money.

Ballistics of the AI case will be very similar to the original 30-30. Remember that velocity will increase at only 1/4 the rate of case capacity increase. If you gain 4% case capacity in the AI you will have a 1% increase in velocity.The big difference will be in the shape of the case. For the 30-30 I am not entirely sure if reforming the shoulder angle accomplishes anything since the round headspaces on the rim. In rimless rounds the AI cases provide more positive headspacing and prolongs brass life in some cases.

Overall it is nice to have something "special" to shoot and that is reason enough!

It has been said many times that attempting to increase the ballistics of a 30-30 is folly in a lever gun due to the weak case and springy action design. I tend to agree with that. If you want better ballistics look to a larger cartridge. Your Handi is a different beast and if there is truly a place in your gun rack for a 30-30AI I would suggest that is the best home for it.

I thought the neck length was shorter on the AI.
My handi has a longer than normal neck and just made some long necked stuff from 38-55 cases.
Putting an AI chamber in one...wouldn't it shorten the brass a bit???

If you wanted to shoot paper patch this may be an issue to think about.

And the fact that maybe the sharp shoulder wouldn't like filler as much as the more tapered shoulder.

I thought of it once too but declined the use of a reamer.

Then again it could be an enlightening experience.

You can get the same velocity with a grain or so more powder and less pressure apparently.

Wouldn't sell me khornet for quids thou.

Hope it helps

Bruce

I am considering that coversion in a single shot Savage which I believe is worth less than my lever gun that cost me $150. If you decide against it I would like to offer you a decent trade/cash on the reamer and dies. JIM

Are you already running your cast bullets full throttle in the 30-30 I don't see extra case capacity as any advantage none of my loads are compressed in 30-30 working a load of leverution powder would net more gain brass already lasts forever and a day
Of course there is a coolness factor that cannot be denied

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Originally Posted by drinks

I must ask, will the deer be able to tell the difference?

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with THAT criteria, I'd guess one should NEVER ream to ANY Ackleys.

in fact, save your components and sell off the -06's and get '08s as deer can't tell the difference....

Heck, same for the 270WSM... the 270Win is only a few feet slower, save the 140Hornady Light Mag that is actually FASTER than the WSM load....

and the 280AI? another waste?

in fact, most magnums of the same caliber, don't do much better than the long action standards....

why waste money indeed! No deer will tell the difference.

In the H&R, you will get better than conventional 30-30 AI velocity increases with full loads of Leverevolution powder and Spitzer bullets. Larry Gibson has excellent research and data on the in a Leverevolution Powder thread on Cast Boolits. Also look at Frank Marshall' s "Heavy Loads for the 30-30", well suited to the 30-30 Hand i.

If you need 180 grs at 2,650 from this rifle, or need to get close to 30-06 performance in 150 grs, ream to 30-40, or contact George (jeepman) on the H&R forum who may do it for you.

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Originally Posted by RPRNY

In the H&R, you will get better than conventional 30-30 AI velocity increases with full loads of Leverevolution powder and Spitzer bullets. Larry Gibson has excellent research and data on the in a Leverevolution Powder thread on Cast Boolits. Also look at Frank Marshall' s "Heavy Loads for the 30-30", well suited to the 30-30 Hand i.

If you need 180 grs at 2,650 from this rifle, or need to get close to 30-06 performance in 150 grs, ream to 30-40, or contact George (jeepman) on the H&R forum who may do it for you.

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And if you use leverevolution powder in the Ackley improved???????

You might get into factory/ low end 30-40 territory. But you'll need a lot of barrel to benefit from the extra powder. Leverevolution is hitting peak pressure 9" - 10" down an M94 barrel at 35 grs. Add capacity, add powder and don't add barrel and you'll be getting unburned powder... Check out Gibsons research on Cast Boolits.

Hummmmmmmm if it ain't broke don't fix-it

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Originally Posted by RPRNY

You might get into factory/ low end 30-40 territory. But you'll need a lot of barrel to benefit from the extra powder. Leverevolution is hitting peak pressure 9" - 10" down an M94 barrel at 35 grs. Add capacity, add powder and don't add barrel and you'll be getting unburned powder... Check out Gibsons research on Cast Boolits.

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Probly not. The sharper shoulder will burn a "slower" powder better. Actually promoting a faster pressure rise. What with the 30-30's high expansion ratio, the pressure at muzzle might rise some, but you won't be spitting out much that is unburned at all. (I have seen Larry's test)

AI have been proven again and again to deliver velocity gains inefficiently. We won't know about Leverevolution in an AI cartridge until someone does it. It remains my opinion that if you keep pressure within SAAMI max 42,000 psi, there will be unburned powder in typical 20" carbine barrels. The H&R barrel will allow you to significantly increase pressure safely (on an SB2 receiver) and is a 24" barrel as I recall.

Do it! That steep shoulder just looks cool!
My vote is to buck the 'stodgies' and go for the reamer.
I believe you will realize flatter trajectories when you push the envelope... maybe only a little, but isn't that worth trouble?

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Originally Posted by gemihur

Do it! That steep shoulder just looks cool!
My vote is to buck the 'stodgies' and go for the reamer.
I believe you will realize flatter trajectories when you push the envelope... maybe only a little, but isn't that worth trouble?

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I agree, Wildcats based on 30-30 Brass is regularly loaded to 45,000 in the proper platform. Got a shoulder, might as well headspace off it!Attachment 102506

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Originally Posted by RPRNY

AI have been proven again and again to deliver velocity gains inefficiently. We won't know about Leverevolution in an AI cartridge until someone does it. It remains my opinion that if you keep pressure within SAAMI max 42,000 psi, there will be unburned powder in typical 20" carbine barrels. The H&R barrel will allow you to significantly increase pressure safely (on an SB2 receiver) and is a 24" barrel as I recall.

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to me AI is not about velocity gains, but in increased brass life.

also, I think SB2s come with 22" barrels. at least mine did

I have not worked with doing the AI thing on a rifle that was all ready built , never considered it worth the trouble and the 30/30 is not one I would consider, If I am going to ream a new barrel or short chambered that is on the lath any way I would ream it AI just because I had to get a reamer any way.

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Originally Posted by nanuk

to me AI is not about velocity gains, but in increased brass life.

also, I think SB2s come with 22" barrels. at least mine did

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Have you experienced short brass life in the 30-30? If so, why?

I never had an issue with 30-30 brass life and if I did, I'd just reach in the bucket for more. For the little advantage the AI cases provide, to me it's not worth the trouble of reaming. Ackley obviously had nothing better to do on the day he decided to reinvent the 30-30.

If I had a single shot 30-30 and I wanted more performance, 30-30 AI wouldn't be what I would do. Don't get me wrong, I love the Ackley concept and have 7x57 Ackley and 6.5x55 Ackley rifles. But they started life as Ackleys, neither was every a standard chamber rifle. If I wanted more out of the Handi, it would become a 30-40 Krag.

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Originally Posted by seaboltm

If I had a single shot 30-30 and I wanted more performance, 30-30 AI wouldn't be what I would do. Don't get me wrong, I love the Ackley concept and have 7x57 Ackley and 6.5x55 Ackley rifles. But they started life as Ackleys, neither was every a standard chamber rifle. If I wanted more out of the Handi, it would become a 30-40 Krag.

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Wisdom.

Folks I hate to bring religion into this debate, but I believe converting a 30-30 Winchester to ANYTHING else actually puts you in mortal sin territory. :D

GoodOlBoy

for sure with all this wisdom abounding, if I had a reamer as the op states I WOULD ream a gun to get my opinion!!! If I had some extra bucks laying around I would do a few of mine.

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Originally Posted by Dan Cash

Save your money.

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money is already spent... no?

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Originally Posted by GoodOlBoy

Folks I hate to bring religion into this debate, but I believe converting a 30-30 Winchester to ANYTHING else actually puts you in mortal sin territory. :D

GoodOlBoy

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doesn't the Good Book also say, "Be Fruitful and Multiply"?

if so, you need to increase the fold by any and all means possible... and while doing that, you may as well add diversity

For cast bullet shooting.....I don't see shortening the case neck as an advantage.

Did you get those chambers cut to AI, here is a link to a 14" barrel shooting the unspeakable in AI . http://forum.nosler.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=13210

PS: If I had the reamer bith my 325 and 840 would be AI'd

Ken