Printable View
I have a mold on the way that basically looks like it is 95% meplat. I want to paper patch it. From the Shank to the Ogive it doesn't look like there is any taper. I would assume you wouldn't want the patch to rap around the from of the meplat at all? Has anyone patched a bullet like this with any luck.. and how?
to clarify, the nose is basically a bore rider. It's actually a wee smaller than a bore rider, but it is just floating over the lands by a few thousandths. 50% shank, 47% "boreride" then a small roundover to the 'basically 95% meplat'.
I don't know the answer to the question though.
well I am just now diving into paper patching.. I understand it is a bore rider. but So should I patch 3/4 of the 47% boreride or all of it right up to the meplat..?
How about a picture of this bullet.
Attachment 97878
the one on the far right. This is not my photo.. it is Whiterabbit's photo.. I bought the mold and it isn't here yet. but I wan't to paperpatch it for my 458 Win Mag. My lead that I get is very very soft. and that is what I wanted but I want to push it. paper patching has intrigued me alot so I want to try and do it with this bullet. any advice welcome :)
I'm no expert but I would say it would be tough to do, the paper would tear when chambered.
just checked my bullets. .452 in the bore ride area via starrett micrometer.
so are you saying it can't be done?
From I have learned from reading various sources, boolits are normally wrapped at the point where the ogive curves. That's very poor wording. But, this gives a tapered jacket that enter the rifling smoothly. Were I you, I would try wrapping the full length of the boolit, letting the patch lap over the 'point' of the boolit, and then load, and try to chamber it in your gun. From what I have read, you need to slug your bore. The boolit needs to be sized .001 - .0015 larger than the 'bore' size. I trust you know the meaning of 'bore', and 'groove' diameters. The wrapped boolit should be .001 - .0015 larger than the 'groove' diameter. If you have the boolit sized right, and wrapped properly, it should chamber. Oh, BTW, Paul Matthews, in 'The Paper Jacket', suggests that you apply lube to the patch, and then push it through an appropriate sizer, and then load the boolit into a cartridge. Hope this helps. mikey :-D
I have lapped the nose section of all my bore riders out to the same diameter as I size the shank to. I then patch to the start of the ogive. Never had any accuracy if the nose was undersize.
If I were to patch that one using a soft alloy, I would cut the width of my strips boolit length and start the wet patch between the base of the nose radius to as far as .125 back from the meplat for the first try. As it is rolled on a soft surface (thick old phone book) with the edge of your hand to tighten the patch, the paper will pull down and then shrink even further on drying, keeping the edge of the paper against the metal so it doesn't get caught and tear on chambering. The extra that hangs over will overlap the heel and, while still damp, can be rolled between your fingers to create pleats and, when dry, pressing it against a flat surface and giving a twist will flatten them out. There is no twisted tail on this style of patch, so a q-tip with some white glue/Elmers/wood glue to anoint the last 1/2" or so of the strip as you wrap it on is what keeps it on the boolit. Glue paper to paper, not paper to lead.
As long as the bore riding nose is smaller that bore diameter, the patch need not go the full length, but could start some distance from the meplat. The point being that any portion of the boolit which will obturate and contact the barrel be covered by the patch. An exposed length of 1/8" at the nose is probably too short to obturate, but the alloy and pressures you like to load to will determine how far up the patch will have to go.
I tumble mine with Lee Liquid Alox and a few drops of automotive liquid carnauba wax (no cleaners or asbrasives) and sometimes size again if the lube grooves in the casting are reflected in patch shrinkage which provides a place for the lube to be wiped into. This gives a prettier boolit and eases entry into the case somewhat, but isn't critical.
This brings up the question of chambering. Loaded like it is in the photo, you'll likely need a two diameter die in a Lyman style lubri-sizer to bring the patched nose down to bore + .001, and the rest to groove + .001 or so, as others have noted. The paper will exhibit a "spring-back" of .001 or so, depending on the paper. My favorite is 100% cotton drafting vellum, in an "E" size sheet which is a lot of patches for a couple bucks. It's usually .0025", has very good wet strength, and two wraps provides .009-.0095, but do yourself a favor and cut the strips from the END of the sheet rather than the SIDE. You'll get much more stretch and a tighter patch that way, which has to do with how the paper was stressed when it was manufactured. Most any paper will do when you have the means to size to the desired diameter(s) but differ greatly in strength when wet. Plain butcher paper (no plastic) has pretty good wet strength and has no titanium oxide as in papers meant for printing. I don't soak this, though, just spray the patch with water from a spray bottle to make it very damp. Saves on torn patches.
That's a real meat-slammer design. I don't know what you're going after with it (Triceratops or wooly mammoth?), but I'll hazard a guess it's going down to stay.
Good luck on your efforts. PP'ing will end the concern of bores streaked with metal fouling.
first off thank you for a very informative post. second this sounds bad.. I wish I had some pictures of the way you were wrapping and twisting with the glue since you don't twist your end. I really would like to see it if you could..Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahbub
secondly right now all I have is a lee push through die to .452.. I do not have a lubrisizer yet. I have a pig hunt planned in april so funds are making me wait on the lubrisizer and making me finish my gun lol. So no wooly mammoth.. just hogs.
You say you tumble yours with liquid alox. is that after wrapped?
The paper I bought was Vellum. 50 big sheets for $12..
I have been practicing on some other bullets different things and out of my first three after set over night.. 1 bullet would fall out of the jacket.. and I wet the paper first. and I am way up on the ogive, but I was pulling pretty hard when I got it to come out.
I am very excited to do paper patching. I like having the benefits of a jackted bullet but knowing I made it with lead and paper :)
I love the shape of that projectile! A hog crusher design for sure!
moose0011,
You need to know your "bore" dia. before you can even start this project..
To save time and not be guessing you should also know your throat dia.
1. size the bullet to .001-002 over bore dia.
2. wrap sized bullet with 2 wraps of paper to bring your bullet up to throat size..
3. load wrapped bullet "long" in unsized fired case by hand over a case full of slow powder..
4. if using a single shot, chamber the round and thumb the case into the chamber which will seat the bullet at the same time..
When you extract the unfired round you should see uniform land engravings on the PP..
If the bullet doesn't stick in the throat you will have your OAL for a loaded round..
5. with a bolt action single load your round as above..
NOW a problem that you might experience is that your PP bullet might not be tight in your loaded (unsized) case..
That means that you should resize the neck of your case "just" small enough so your round doesn't de-bullet when you extract the round from the chamber..
In your case using a .458 that means you will have to order a bushing re-sizing die from Buckshot who is member here at castboolits..
You will have to experiment as to what size bushing you need to order..
As far as patching that cylinder bullet goes shown in your photo above, size it 1-2 thou over "bore" dia. then make the patch long enough to twist "both" ends and see how that shoots..
I have no idea if it will shoot worth a poop, but it might..
Problems you might encounter:
Your Vellum might be to thick..
If your patched bullet is more than 3-4 thou over your throat dia. then you will have to either go to a thinner paper or buy a PT sizing die to size the bullet to fit the throat..
If you resize a PP bullet as per above unwrap it after you resize it and make sure that your core bullet is the same size as it was before you wrapped it with paper to begin with..
That is important!
Velum is a dense paper and I love it because it doesn't tear when wet unless you really try..
BUT Velum doesn't tolerate being resized with out sizing down the core bullet as much as other less dense papers..
There is a learning curve to PP..
You may not have time to get to where you what to be before your hog hunting trip in April..
For the long run if you are going to be shooting your .458 a lot you should either buy a Lyman 45114-450gr. (?) as per pdawg shooter or have Accurate Molds cut you a Loverin style mold 1-2 thou over your bore dia.
If your pic of the loaded bullet engraves the lands/throat on loading ....then I would try a 1/2 patch.
IE: start paper just in front of the first groove from the nose.
Lube by rolling across some lla and rub the nose section as well.
I got some reasonable accuracy and speed in a 30-30 trying that.
With soft lead I'd be inclined to stick to 17-1800fps max which outta knock the snot out of most things
Std gc velocity with out the hardness :)
Just another idea/way to do it.
Barra
You're quite welcome, moose0011, and welcome to paper patching! You're quite right, a few photos would go a long way toward de-mystifying the details. I'll see if I can post some to help. . . . . Okaaaaay, the cell phone photos are stinko, but I may be able to borrow a real camera and post something proper.Quote:
first off thank you for a very informative post. second this sounds bad.. I wish I had some pictures of the way you were wrapping and twisting with the glue since you don't twist your end. I really would like to see it if you could..
secondly right now all I have is a lee push through die to .452.. I do not have a lubrisizer yet. I have a pig hunt planned in april so funds are making me wait on the lubrisizer and making me finish my gun lol. So no wooly mammoth.. just hogs.
You say you tumble yours with liquid alox. is that after wrapped?
The paper I bought was Vellum. 50 big sheets for $12..
I have been practicing on some other bullets different things and out of my first three after set over night.. 1 bullet would fall out of the jacket.. and I wet the paper first. and I am way up on the ogive, but I was pulling pretty hard when I got it to come out.
I am very excited to do paper patching. I like having the benefits of a jackted bullet but knowing I made it with lead and paper
Here goes:
Attachment 98288
First the patches are cut. For the purposes of this demo, it's plain butcher paper going on a 320 gr. smooth sided .40 cal for a Schutzen rifle.
Attachment 98289
Patches, boolits, spray bottle with water for the patches, and white glue thinned just a touch with water and a swab to apply it with.
A note about drafting vellum. It has sizing on it and will feel slightly slippery when first wetted. I cut my vellum patches and drown them in a cereal bowl of hot tap water, swirling them around a bit to remove the sizing. This also loosens the fibers a bit and facilitates stretching. I once experimented to see just how far I could stretch a patch for a .380 diameter boolit and managed about .080" before they started to tear. The degree of shrinkage on drying was considerably enhanced and it was possible to run them through a Lyman lubri-sizer and lube the grooves in the patch. That's more work than I'm willing to do as a matter of routine, but this kind of durability sold me on 100% cotton vellum and I haven't been disappointed since. My vellum patches are generally cut some .040" short and I roll them on a soft surface to tighten them until the ends meet the way they should. It makes for nicely fitted and tight patches.
Attachment 98290
I wet butcher paper patches by spraying both sides with water for a not-entirely-soaked texture. This preserves some toughness and the wrap commences. I usually hold it in my hands to wrap, but couldn't take pictures at the same time, so what you see is the how the wrap begins. This direction is for rifling with a right-hand twist, to get the seam to cross a land or lands like an X and ensure a good gas seal. With good obturation, it's not a disaster if the seam runs parallel to the rifling, but just to remove the possibility of seam leakage and burned patches from the equation, it's best to wrap it opposite the rifling's twist. For a pretty boolit, bragging rights and giving the impression you're an old hand at this, keep the leading edge of the patch aligned as you wrap it. With a little practice, they'll look machine perfect.
Attachment 98291
Once wrapped, lay it on a soft surface like an old phone book, rubber matt and roll it with your hand applying some pressure to tighten the patch. Check it and see if the edges of the patch are touching. If you're PATCHING to final diameter, it's best to have a smidgeon of gap rather than an overlap. An overlap will conspire to hold the boolit to one side in the case, possibly starting it down the barrel off-center. A small gap (010-.030") won't cause it to be off center and will cross a land anyway and obturation will seal it on firing. I prefer to SIZE to final diameter which irons any small overlap into the boolit surface and it's surface is smoothly cylindrical. True, such an indentation moves the boolit's center of gravity ever so slightly off it's center of geometry, but the error is mathematically insignificant, decreasing further as boolit diameter increases. When patching .224's, it may well make a difference, but .458's, probably not. I avoid overlaps on principle, but I've not been able to notice a difference in scores.
Attachment 98266
Lift the end of the patch and swab the last 1/2 to 3/4" (about as far as you see the swab reaching onto the patch) with white glue thinned with a few drops of water, like thin model paint, easy to wipe on and not thick and goopy. Not much is needed, but gluing down the corners are important. It's annoying when they are loose and want to get folded over when seating them in the case or when chambering. Roll the boolit to squeeze out any excess and set aside to dry.
Attachment 98268
These five are positioned to show the seams. I marked one so it was obvious - as you may have guessed, photography is not my strong suit.
Attachment 98269
Drying. Not yet dry enough to pleat well, but close.
Attachment 98271
When nearly dry, roll them between thumb and forefinger to cause the paper to pleat like a cupcake paper.
Attachment 98273
Once completely dry, hold the heel down on a firm surface and give them a twist in the same direction you patched them in order to flatten the pleats. This is to assist in hanging onto the patch when loading as well as keeping the edge from being caught on something and tearing during handling. It also assists in getting it started in the case without bunching up.
Attachment 98274
Flattened pleats.
If they are at the desired diameter, the next order of business is to lube them. As in the earlier post, I tumble-lube with Lee Liquid Alox, adding a few drops of liquid carnauba wax which keeps the LLA from being so tacky when dry.
As you can see from the various responses, there's more than one way to skin a cat. As Nrut notes, it's a workable approach to just size the entire boolit to bore+ and patch it to the desired finished diameter. With the right thickness of paper, your .452 push-through die could be just the place to start. My experience shows a patched boolit with two wraps will be paper thickness x 4 -.001, hence, .0025 paper x 4 -.001 will give me .009 increase in diameter, sometimes .0095. Not sure why, it's just how it works out. Achieving the desired final diameter can also be accomplished by patching the boolit as-cast and sizing it in a push-through die, which is usually what I do. Some have reported loose patches with this technique, but hasn't been a problem for me so far. The only potential fly in the ointment I can think of is that your boolit will be groove diameter from heel to meplat, necessitating deep seating to be able to chamber, depending on how much freebore your throat has. To seat to the design depth and still chamber the round with a short throat, the patched bore-riding nose will need to be bore +.001 or so, and the rest will have to be groove +.001 or so. A two-diameter in-out die (Lyman or RCBS style) will certainly do it, but that's something someone here can make for you once you work out what you need. I have read some .458's have generous freebore, in which case Nrut's technique for determining seating depth will also handily reveal the amount of freebore in your rifle's throat. I'd patch a few and start there.
Clear as crystal mud? :shock: That's a lot of details, so feel free to ask questions about whatever is murky.
Good luck and let us know how you do. :popcorn:
Thank you sir that is a Great post. I have a couple different things I want to try.. so we will see what happens. I didn't pick up some things I didn't know on your post that I didn't know so that was great. I ordered Paul A Matthews book on paper patching so I hope I learn alot there.Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahbub
You'll find it a very informative read. I first got serious about this as a result of reading Matthew's book. I don't think you can go wrong there. The one difference I picked up afterwards was skipping the long tail and learning to glue the patches instead. Short boolit designs required a ridiculous quantity of paper if I was to twist a tail on them, like 158gr RNFP's for .357's. Most of the patch was tail and would be clipped off and thrown away. Seemed a waste. Some folks thought gluing the patch to itself to keep it tight would interfere with the patch coming off on exit, but those high pressure gasses blasting out of there when the boolit uncorks the barrel turns them to confetti very handily, as long as they're not glued to the boolit. That's a recipe for lousy accuracy, in my experience.
These hogs you're hunting, are they feral or hunting stock on a game farm?
Feral pigs :). for now... I just learned something or just came upon info that I didn't know. I was told that with paper patch bullets you don't want to let them set for along time loaded. 10 days max because the lube dryies out and they will no longer be accurate?
Naaaah. Well, I don't know what the poster was using for lube, but that's never been my experience. I've used a number of boolit lubes on paper patches, homemade and commercial and they have their particular characteristics. None of them have ever ceased being lubricative because they were on a paper patch. In fact, a paper patch boolit will use considerably less than the same boolit with grease grooves. I'm still on a bottle of Lee Liquid Alox I started a year or more ago. I have PP hunting ammo that's been loaded for a few years and it shows no signs of flaking off or not performing as advertised. A useful feature of LLA is that it will waterproof your patches like a coat of paint. The pressure of the case neck against the LLA on the seated boolit will also seal the case neck against inclement weather, so you needn't worry about your PP ammo on a damp or drizzly day. Alox was first developed as a soft varnish-like corrosion inhibitor, not a lubricant. Cast boolit users are a curious lot of inveterate tinkerers and in time it was mixed with beeswax and, voila, boolit lube. Now Lee has a version in liquid form for their tumble-lube boolit designs which is just the ticket for tumble-lubing PP boolits. That way, I can do them by the batch and spend more time experimenting. It is pretty tacky when dry, but a few drops of carnauba wax makes it less so.
I've even used straight pan spray coating for cooking, just wiping it on with my fingers to make the patch a little shiny and it worked great, but was a little messy. I wouldn't trust it to not get wiped off, and those were sent downrange from a muzzleloader, but for an experiment, it worked fine.
I've been wanting to score some pork as well, but the game farms are pricey and there are no feral "volunteers" close enough to be readily accessible. Seems I need some other plan.
Thanks yeahbub.. as far as volunteers.. I know what you mean.. I had to pull some strings to make this happen. plus my buddy is getting married down there and his friends dad owns a huge ranch down there and some come on down.. I just got lucky.