Someone explain this free bore thing? Please

Ok,I sent for Matthews book on the paper jacket....I am not too impressed with it,but thats just me....Anyhow...He mentions this free bore alot..I think it is a space between the chamber and the start of the rifleing if it is anything like a WEATHERBY rifle is....Anyhow,he says that this is the cause of why some will shoot the bore diameter PP Bullets and some will not..I do not believe my Pedersoli to have this feature..

Some some of you with more experince,please explain this to me..Cause if this have any truth to do,AM I just blowing smoke for nothing? I know one fellow on here mentioned the rifle just maight not do it ???

I did however try a few yesterday of the groove diameter PP bullets and they weren't to bad at 200...Damn I hate to keep asking you guys all this,but I gots to know and my grandson would say... Just added this...Even with Remington brass and a tight-snug PP bullet fit--Still getting this damn blow by...??

There's a few folks on this and other forums that have their PHD in the 'art of BLACKPOWDER PP' whereas Matthews with his smokeless work is in kindergarten!!

Go here:

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm....free-bore.html

Shooting BORE DIAMETER PP bullets doesn't require free bore!!

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Originally Posted by catkiller45

I do not believe my Pedersoli to have this feature..

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It might.
The chamber used by Pedersoli is said to have changed recently. I don't know how to define 'recent' in this regard, and the only source of that information that I have heard of is Paul Jones, the bullet mould maker.

Paul Jones is the only maker currently offering a mould for the .460 550 Pedersoli-Gunn-Trenk bullet. Most refer to it as the PGT bullet, but he calls it the 'Pedersoli Chamber' on his website.
According to posts here, when potential customers contact him to inquire about this design, he tells them that Pedersoli has changed their chamber, and offers to sell them a different style of mould.

What is unknown is ...
How long ago did this change occur?
and ...
What is the configuration of the new chamber?

Since Dick Trenk has died, there is no longer anyone around to ask these questions of.

Anyway, depending on the age of your particular rifle, you very well may have a groove diameter freebore, .237" long, between the end of your chamber and the beginning of the leade.

The year your rifle was manufactured can be determined by looking at the proof mark. It should be on the bottom of your receiver next to the lever, and will be two capital letters in a rectangular box.

Alternatively (and this is a good idea for other reasons), you can make a casting of your chamber with Cerrosafe ... or make an impact impression with some soft lead.
That will definitively answer your current question, and will probably prove useful for later wonderings, as well.

If you DO have the normal/original/former Pedersoli chamber, this is a picture of how it looks with the PGT bullet loaded in a 45/70 case. The feebore spans two driving bands, a grease groove, and the 'wiper'.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/v...hPGTBullet.gif

CM

With out going down to look I can say my rifle is at least 6-7 years old...I will have to check later...The blow by is what has be wondering..I tried New remington brass which allows for a tight fit of the patched bullet..NOT as much powder as the Win, brass..Today I was using 74 grains of 1F Goex and would get fair groups but still the blow by or back whatever you want to call it....[smilie=1: I forgot that when I bought this rifle new the fellow in the shop that specializes in black powder,mentioned that this rifle had a spelling here might be way off a Beauchamp barrel ??? Sound right?

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Originally Posted by montana_charlie

It might.

The chamber used by Pedersoli is said to have changed recently. I don't know how to define 'recent' in this regard,......................

What is unknown is ...
How long ago did this change occur?
and ...
What is the configuration of the new chamber?

Alternatively (and this is a good idea for other reasons), you can make a casting of your chamber with Cerrosafe ... or make an impact impression with some soft lead.

That will definitively answer your current question, and will probably prove useful for later wonderings, as well.


CM

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What MC has mentioned, is true.

Here's a pic of the chamber from my Ped RB 45-70, made in the early 80's. You'll notice that there is NO Free bore in this chamber. Best to do a chamber cast and save yourself a whole lot of trouble.

RRR

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catkiller45

With out going down to look I can say my rifle is at least 6-7 years old...I will have to check later...The blow by is what has be wondering..I tried New remington brass which allows for a tight fit of the patched bullet..NOT as much powder as the Win, brass..Today I was using 74 grains of 1F Goex and would get fair groups but still the blow by or back whatever you want to call it....[smilie=1: I forgot that when I bought this rifle new the fellow in the shop that specializes in black powder,mentioned that this rifle had a spelling here might be way off a Beauchamp barrel ??? Sound right?

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Catkiller45

Beauchamp is one of the importers of the Pedersoli rifles (its why their name is on the barrel )

They are located in Ma. , it's where i got my Ped , rifle.

Joe

So if my barrel has this little space or free bore, is this what is causing the blow back on the cases? I think once that is cured the PP bullets might do well...:cbpour:

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Originally Posted by catkiller45

So if my barrel has this little space or free bore, is this what is causing the blow back on the cases? I think once that is cured the PP bullets might do well...:cbpour:

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Blowback is usually either work hardened brass or low pressure .

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Originally Posted by catkiller45

So if my barrel has this little space or free bore, is this what is causing the blow back on the cases? I think once that is cured the PP bullets might do well...:cbpour:

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You have been shooting two kinds of bullets, and your questions don't help us keep track of which one you were shooting when you got the indication that you are asking about.

When you shoot a bore diameter patched bullet in a chamber that has a quarter inch of groove diameter freebore, you can expect to have powdersmoke blowing around rather randomly in that empty space just ahead of the cartridge case.
Some will probably 'blowby' past the bullet, and some may 'blowback' and dirty the case.

If the same blowback on the brass happens when shooting bullets patched to groove diameter, then something definitely isn't right.

If you're using new Remington cases, there is probably no 'hardness' problem with the brass. But, blowback says the brass is not filling the chamber to seal the gasses out.
A chamber cast is the best way to find out what kind of hole your cases need to fill up.

CM

Change to 2F!!

Let me be more clear Charlie....

1-With grease grooved bullets of any shape or weight I have NO issues at all..

2- With paper patched to groove dia. .458 inch No issue's with brass-blow by or
blow back nothing...But of course the bullets are seated a lot deeper as yoou know.

3- With bore diamete-.441 paptched up to .4495 or .450 this is when it goes bad..
I get the dreaded blow by..Even with the new brass which permits a snug bullet fit..
I have the case full..Either with 1F-2F makes no difference.. I was using the Cartridge.
but I understand they (Goex) are NO longer making it... So I am going to get the stuff
as you suggest and make a chamber cast to see what it looks like in there....

This is about all I can tell you at this time...

Have you tried annealing the brass?
I seem to recall reading here that it is recommended.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catkiller45

Let me be more clear Charlie....

1-With grease grooved bullets of any shape or weight I have NO issues at all..

2- With paper patched to groove dia. .458 inch No issue's with brass-blow by or
blow back nothing...But of course the bullets are seated a lot deeper as yoou know.

3- With bore diamete-.441 paptched up to .4495 or .450 this is when it goes bad..
I get the dreaded blow by..Even with the new brass which permits a snug bullet fit.

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That pretty well describes what I would be expecting if my chamber was cut with the freebore in place.

Dan Theodore replied to your thread over at Shiloh, and said flat out that you should be patching to groove with a .450" bullet.
If you have the chamber that I think you have, it makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Longwood

Have you tried annealing the brass?
I seem to recall reading here that it is recommended.

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He's shooting new brass which has not had a chance to harden, and he got similar results with his old brass AFTER he annealed it.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=146819


CM

I had a nice chat with Mr. Lee Shaver today about all this stuff....I should have called him before....First I had a talk with Dick at Flintlock,inc......He refered me to Lee....He claims my rifle has no free free..This has not been done in the last 10 to 12 years or so...And he claims the rifle will shoot paper patch just fine..And he took the time to explain it all to me...One heck of a nice fellow...So when I get to loading again for bore diameter I will let you know....I am all out of PP boolits until my shipment comes in..I have some pure lead and the mold but no way to melt it unless I use the cook stove and that aint happening....

Dick Trenk was the U.S. rep for the Pedersoli factory. He was very faithful in telling us (the BPCR community) everything new that took place with Pedersoli.
In September of 2005 Dick sent me an email with a verbal description of the Pedersoli chamber current at that time.
It was the configuration that had been used since (about) 1999 or 2000.
The email clearly describes the freebore.

Dick died in the fall of 2009 with never any mention that Pedersoli had redesigned their Sharps chamber.


I bought my Pedersoli Sharps in December of 2005. The rifle was manufactured in 2001. It had the freebore chamber, but it was a 45/70.
I had it sent from the seller (in Missouri) to Lee Shaver (also in Missouri) and he rechambered it to 45/90.

During our exchange of emails prior to the purchase, we talked about the unique Pedersoli chamber. I wanted him to cut a 45/90 chamber with the same Pedersoli throat, but he said he didn't have a reamer to do that. So, I agreed to go with his 'match chamber' instead of waiting and hoping a 45/90 would come up for sale.

If you check those dates, Both Dick Trenk and Lee Shaver were aware of the freebore-type chamber as being in use IN 2005 ... which is NOT 10 or 12 years ago.

But it did first come INTO use some 12-ish years ago.

Make of all that what you will ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catkiller45

I have some pure lead and the mold but no way to melt it unless I use the cook stove and that aint happening....

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The cook stove is fine for melting Cerrosafe, which melts below the boiling point of water.
It only takes ten minutes to make a chamber cast, and then you know (for sure) what is in your hands.

An impact cast is no more difficult, doesn't require heat at all, and produces a model which will never change dimensions.


CM

I have a Perdersoli Gemmer Sharps 45-70. I don't know the year of manufacture, but it was imported by Cape Giraradeau Outfitters so it's been around for a while. Using a patched bullet from Montana Bullet works in .458. I get an overall cartridge length of 2.790 which to my mind at least would at best limit its use to a target round with an over powder wad only and no cookie and top wad given how deep I'd have to seat the bullet. I also have a custom Gemmer TD(I like Gemmers) 45-70 and again with the .458, I get the same overall cartridge length give or take .00005. The paper Montana uses is very heavy, the bare bullet being .440. I repatched it with tracing vellum and now it's .451005. It's an easy push fit in the TD and a bit tight in the Pedersoli.

Duane

Just do what Red River Rick suggests do a chamber cast It will answer all your questions.

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Originally Posted by Lead pot

Just do what Red River Rick suggests do a chamber cast It will answer all your questions.

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Plan on it next week when the order comes thru:violin::violin::violin:

That's good. It will tell you what exactly you need.
When the first Pedersoli Quigley rifle came on the market I had to get it.
Then the fun started working up a load thet would not send a bullet down range with out it cutting the paper sideways.
After two weeks changing bullets I made a sulphur chamber cast and found a long .400" cylinder free bore.
I changed the patched bullets to the free bore diameter and the GG bullets I swaged with out a bore riding step at full free bore diameter and things turned to the best as far as the rifle shot.
Then the soft parts started showing up and brittle main springs.
I dont want to go farther!
I now have 6 Shiloh's and one getting build. Not walking that trail again.

Falling block you can look in the reach and see if you have the throat you think you do.

In my Win-Mir 45-70 I can see that the lands start immediately at the end of the chamber cut. If I took a chamber cast it would look like the one above. If you have half an inch of freebore I think you should be able to see it from the breach.

It's a ROUND SMOOTH SURFACE ahead of the case with no lands/grooves!

Now maybe this thread will die!!

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Originally Posted by RMulhern

It's a ROUND SMOOTH SURFACE ahead of the case with no lands/grooves!

Now maybe this thread will die!!

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You must be pulling everybody's legs. It just can't be that simple. Now what is it really?[smilie=1:

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Originally Posted by RMulhern

It's a ROUND SMOOTH SURFACE ahead of the case with no lands/grooves!

Now maybe this thread will die!!

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And you wonder why people don't post.
Ron

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Originally Posted by idahoron

And you wonder why people don't post.
Ron

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No Ron...I don't wonder at all! Oft times it's because people don't listen to what they're being told and don't care to do any research! There are no telling how many diagrams there are on this subject and all one has to do is a Google search to find answers! I don't think it should take a PHD in engineering to understand what FREEBORE is!!

Maybe it's time for you to thaw out and listen to the birds!

I still don't understand free bore. Guess I'll have to Google.:groner:

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Originally Posted by Mike Brooks

I still don't understand free bore. Guess I'll have to Google.:groner:

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Try this:

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm....free-bore.html

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Originally Posted by panadp

you must be pulling everybody's legs. It just can't be that simple. Now what is it really?[smilie=1:

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LOL! You guys are killing me!

So, how much free bore is good if any?

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Originally Posted by Mike Brooks

So, how much free bore is good if any?

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Here's some reading material!

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14864

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Originally Posted by Mike Brooks

So, how much free bore is good if any?

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Without knowing anything about your caliber, and the shooting game you are interested in, nobody can answer your question.

CM

I have never cast my chamber so I don't know if it has excess free bore or not. It's a farmingdale gun in 45-70 serial # 4997, I don't know when it was made. It does shoot 500gr GG bullets well when they are loaded out several groves and the bullet touching the rifling. It's got the old 1 in 22 twist and tends to shoot lighter bullets well too. I may start loading them out a ways too and see what happens. Jus no time to really wring this gun out.......

I suppose you could think of freebore as like a coned muzzle on a muzzleloader for starting the ball with your thumb, but that smooth area being at the start of the rifling forward of the chamber.
Anyway, I think Mike Brooks may be kidding a little, as he has a fine reputation as a muzzleloader builder–I sure would like to own one of his fowlers!
Sam

Oh, I wish I were kidding! I have been building and shooting muzzleloaders for 32 years.This cartridge stuff has captured my attention in the last 3 or 4 years....I'm a complete novice with anything that loads from the back end![smilie=l:
I appreciate the help fellas.

You know, with most single shots you can look into the back end and see what the throat looks like. If you examine a few you'll immediately be able to see the difference between chambers.

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Originally Posted by Mike Brooks

I have never cast my chamber so I don't know ...

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There are a few good things to know about a chamber, and making a cast is the best way to learn them.

The Farmingdales were known for having some freebore, and your 'need' to set a bullet out several grease grooves to touch the lands does indicate a length of unobstructed bore.

Some say the freebore used in the Farmingdales was for paper patched bullets.
If true, it would be useful to know the diameter of that zone, and how it compares with groove diameter in the bore.

The freebore would allow the patched bullet to sit way out of the case, and resemble the ammunition used by the Old Dead Guys in their original rifles. But it would also make patching to bore diameter (like the ODG did) a total waste of time.

A little bit of freebore is not a 'bad thing' really when you think in general terms.
A tenth of an inch is not uncommon, and even a quarter inch is manageable.
If your 45/70 has .400" of freebore (a number that my subconcious acquired from somewhere) that gun would be a good candidate for rechambering to 45/90.
That should leave you with a tenth ...

However, if your chamber is a modern one, and you are determined to patch to bore diameter, it's best if there is none.

CM

Guess I'll get some while they are still "free"

There's gonna be a BOGO sale on Bore over the Memorial Day holiday weekend. Then we'll be calling it BOGO Bore.