Martini-action, custom-built

Good afternoon, all.

Slight introduction first. I'm not new to shooting, however to casting projectiles and reloading i am very new. And am after a little bit of help. I am a newly-qualified Engineer & Toolmaker, from New Zealand, with dreams of becoming a qualified Gunsmith.

So of course, when it came the days to do a sort of "Final project" to finish my apprenticeship, the solution was simple.

I had an old Martini-Enfield action rusting away i collected from a good mate, with a bit of cleaning it came up very nicely- then the hard bit. Calibre? After some thought, i spotted an old double-rifle book i had.. and came up with .45-70. Some digging later, i found a chap locally manufacturing barrels. Received the barrel blank a week later. Machining, fitting took about a week, bluing was done by hand, the barrel is 28" long 1" diameter heavy bull profile sights are modified Pattern14 Parker-Hale diopter rear with Globe front.

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/IMG_1691.jpg
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/IMG_1690.jpg
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/IMG_1689.jpg

Now to the thick of things.

I have two moulds, Lyman 405gr Flatnose/non gas checked, and Lyman 480gr spire point/non gas checked

The rifling in this particular rifle is 1-18" twist rate, i am trialing loads using 34gr of H4198 powder behind the 480 gr boolit(I'll get used to the terminology!)

So far its performing admirably, however i am still incredibly new to the reloading scene- i understand the engineering behind it but nothing beats experience!

So all i can ask is- any suggestions for where i should go from here to develop the most accurate loadings i can? Powder, load etc.

For reference, the rifle/action has been proofed to upper loads for Marlin lever guns, not quite Ruger #1 loadings however

Beautiful job on your rifle. With My 45/70s I use an old 405 grain Lee mould and either 4198 or 3031. For lighter loads that won't punish you so much Trail Boss powder is a good choice.

I especially like the rear sight. What is it, and how hard was it to make the custom mount?

I've got to say, nice work.

Nice work Bane. I have news for you. You are probably BETTER qualified as any other "gunsmith" in NZ. There are a few very clever engineers and a lot of 'butchers' who think they are gunsmiths. I secret is to find the former. I know a brilliant benchrester with a good workshop. He is my go-to guy. Good luck to you.

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Originally Posted by Tatume

I especially like the rear sight. What is it, and how hard was it to make the custom mount?

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Incredibly easy actually!

This is the exact rear sight i used

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Images/PH5Brearsight.jpg

I flipped the diopter carriage upside down and remachined/re-threaded the hole for the diopter so it sat closer to the carriage. Machined a flat and re-scaled it (The P14 had "Wings" on the receiver for the ladder sight the diopter sight is underslung to sit inside these wings) tidied up the body of the mount sight and machined exess metal off, then drilled and tapped a new hole, machined a screw to go through the bolt block and pull the sight against the receiver, using two 3/32" tension pins pinned to the receiver body to prevent it rotating.

Front sight i pinched off a Gevarm .22, remachined to fit barrel profile.

Took a while getting sight profile correct and getting it lined up, i need to get a load worked out then take it to the range so i can re-engrave the rear sightplate with ranges.

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Originally Posted by JeffinNZ

Nice work Bane. I have news for you. You are probably BETTER qualified as any other "gunsmith" in NZ. There are a few very clever engineers and a lot of 'butchers' who think they are gunsmiths. I secret is to find the former. I know a brilliant benchrester with a good workshop. He is my go-to guy. Good luck to you.

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Thank you! I'm only 25 years old, so dont think too highly of me yet, i have alot more learning to do!.
I notice your in Christchurch- this barrel came from John Thompson if you know of him?



Dframe: what powder grain weight do you use behind your 405 load? Would like to work out a good load for both weights of projectile

Yes, I know John. I have an invite to visit his workshop and see barrels being made. Very nice man is John.

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Originally Posted by JeffinNZ

Yes, I know John. I have an invite to visit his workshop and see barrels being made. Very nice man is John.

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When you see him, pass on my regards and if possible direct him to the photos

You have produced a classic target rifle. Elegant in its simplicity. In terms of where to go from here have you slugged the barrel? Go .001 or .002 over grove diameter for your bullets. You have a good powder but the levergun section etc. will have alternatives if you arn't satisfied with what you have. What about alloy? I run everything from straight wheelweights to 1 & 20 tin to lead in my Marlin 1895. Gas checks are another option along with black powder or paper patched bullets.

Some guys on the Marlinowners site are getting one inch groups at 100 yds. with the .45/70. I am not one of them but with your rifle that does not seem like an unreasonable objective.

In addition do some reading. On the Los Angeles Silouette Club site Glen Frexell (sp?) has a series on the opening page that has virtually everything you wanted to know about bullet casting. While the focus is on revolvers most of it applies to rifles as well. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is excellent. Paul Matthews and Mike Venturino (Handloader and Rifle magazines) have also written extensively on casting. You could join the Cast Bullet Association. Lots of good technical stuff on their site.

Last there is also another option that might work for sombody with your skills. One day I went to the range and spotted a fellow shooting an 1871 Martini complete with Crown and VR on the action. He couldn't remember the caliber but was shooting bullets that he made the molds and gas checks for. On another occasion I spotted him shooting an Italian rolling block. He was not too happy with the accuracy; said he cut the rifling to deep on the barrel. He made it from a broken axle off of one of those machines used for moving cargo containers.

Greg B.

Beautiful rifle. I also agree on bore size. You want cast boolits a little over. You might just try out of the mold to see how big they are in relation to bore size, before you try to size and lube them. If you have a piece of barrel left you can size that. You can always lube with liquid Alox in a plastic bowl. I've got a .38-55 rifle that requires .380 boolits. I use as cast and lube with Alox in a bowl. I get sub 3/4 inch groups at 100 yards from a rest.
I have always used 3031 in my 45-70s with both boolits and bullets, and I've never had one not shoot well.
DHB

Thanks for the support guys

A little bit of success, shot a small amount of reloads. Had help casting these a while back, 500gr gas checked lubed with 60/40 beeswax/olive oil.. Range in the workshop is only 50 yards but it is enough to get a rough idea of how its shooting

44grains was actually quite tame, rifle held up beautifully, considering going up to 46-47 grains.

Estimated velocity is ~1700 FPS

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/IMG_1692.jpg

I havent slugged the bore yet, i was hoping i could retreive at least one of the lighter loads however i underestimated the power of the rifle- blew a hole clean through two phonebooks (Thank god for a properly built range!)

Will slug it this week hopefully and work out what its measuring, however it shot quite nicely with straight-from-the-moulds.

Bore is spotless, no leading, no exess grease, no unburnt powder residue. Quite happy atm.

My only concern is the lube i am using, 60/40 beeswax/olive oil was suggested as an interim solution however could i keep shooting this lube if its not causing me any problems?

1) If it ain't broke don't fix it. Your rifle seems to like that lube with that boolit and at that velocity so why change? Only question I would have concerns temperature. Does the stuff melt off the boolits if you leave them sitting in the sun? If you look around on this site they have recipies for many bullet lubes. Also from what I can see you are using gas checks. These help greatly in the prevention of leading until you get to the upper end of lead boolit velocities. So if you go to a plain base boolit keep in mind that you may have to change lubes if it starts to lead.

2) You don't have to slug the bore. You got a custon barrel so the dimensions are probably where they should be. I have a rifle that shoots fine without going through that little exercise. If you are getting poor accuracy and leading etc. and you think the boolit is undersize or the barrel oversize this is the way to find out as both conditions are not good.

3) Just in case you have a hard time finding gas checks, like here in Canada, Corbins sells tools to make them. Here on this site there is a fellow named Pat Marlin who also sells gas check tools.

4) Before I did anything more I would load more ammunition and vary the powder charge and shoot a bunch of three shot groups to see what works best. That last 44 gr. group is starting to look interesting.

Greg B.

As i said these boolits were cast a while ago (8-10 months?) and lubed. I did clean them a little better, the one in the pic was kicking around the bottom of my toolbox :P

I dont think i will be shooting only gas-checked boolits, i have a spitzer point 500gr mould so what i *think* i will be doing next is i will be loading three different grain weights, 44, 46 and 48 gr and two different projectiles, 500gr gaschecked fn and 500gr ungaschecked s/p.

I suppose i have to figure out when i can get to the range next!

As for slugging the bore, thanks for that i was a little worried :D i suppose if it shoots just fine i shouldnt have to worry too much.

If i do find i start having leading problems what lube would you recommend? (I prefer going from "Best personal experience" then working from there :P)

I am currently shooting a plain base 405 gr. Lee boolit at slow trapdoor velocities using a 1 & 20 soft tin/lead alloy. Accuracy and economy are my main interest. Lube is the old NRA 50/50 beeswax alox formula. No leading.

Only time I remember leading a barrel was on my .357 Ruger Blackhawk using weel weight alloy and full velocity loads. I switched to linotype alloy and the leading pretty much stopped. Same lube.

If you stick to trapdoor velocity and pressures using a relatively soft alloy and the lube you got it probably won't lead. If you go fast use a hard alloy, hard lube and gas checks. Gas checks go a long way toward preventing leading at speeds approaching maximum. However don't use hard bullets at low velocities as sometimes they won't seal the barrel properly and you get gas blowby which melts some of the boolit lead onto the barrel. If you are buying lube most manufactures have a blend for higher velocities. I don't have any high speed lube recomendations as I usually shoot at slower velocities. In the lube section here there are lots of recomendations just experiment and your rifle will tell you what it likes.

Greg B.

Bane,
That is really nice work! Clean, well thought out... You should be proud.

No interest in moving to the states, eh? ;)

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Originally Posted by Greg B.

I am currently shooting a plain base 405 gr. Lee boolit at slow trapdoor velocities using a 1 & 20 soft tin/lead alloy. Accuracy and economy are my main interest. Lube is the old NRA 50/50 beeswax alox formula. No leading.

Only time I remember leading a barrel was on my .357 Ruger Blackhawk using weel weight alloy and full velocity loads. I switched to linotype alloy and the leading pretty much stopped. Same lube.

If you stick to trapdoor velocity and pressures using a relatively soft alloy and the lube you got it probably won't lead. If you go fast use a hard alloy, hard lube and gas checks. Gas checks go a long way toward preventing leading at speeds approaching maximum. However don't use hard bullets at low velocities as sometimes they won't seal the barrel properly and you get gas blowby which melts some of the boolit lead onto the barrel. If you are buying lube most manufactures have a blend for higher velocities. I don't have any high speed lube recomendations as I usually shoot at slower velocities. In the lube section here there are lots of recomendations just experiment and your rifle will tell you what it likes.

Greg B.

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Thanks, much to think about there, i'll be shooting in the next couple weeks will keep you all informed!

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Originally Posted by Sgt Petro

Bane,
That is really nice work! Clean, well thought out... You should be proud.

No interest in moving to the states, eh? ;)

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Not atm sorry :D i'm quite happy here :P

I was at the states last year and didnt have much of a good experience (All revolving around Los Angeles airport)

People there are fantastic though.

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Originally Posted by Bane

I was at the states last year and didnt have much of a good experience (All revolving around Los Angeles airport)
People there are fantastic though.

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............I quite often wish an asteroid would hit LA (NOT just LAX) and I only live 70 miles east of it.

Bane, Welcome to the board and glad to have you. I don't know what plans you have for your new rifle (and a beauty it is, too) but for just casual shooting and plinking, I sure suggest you invest in a 300gr slug. Less powder and lead going downrange and less wear and tear on you also[smilie=s: One of my favorite loads in the 45-70 is the 292gr Lyman over varying charges of 2400, 4227, SR4759, or 4198. They're all accurate and at velocities of 13-1400 fps I've never had one bounce off the target paper yet.

http://www.fototime.com/A971EB297A7EE57/standard.jpg http://www.fototime.com/82F9C15B4D54EF4/standard.jpg

I too have 'done' a couple Martini's. The top one was chambered .444 Marlin, and I REALLY should have rasped off that stupid rollover cheekpiece :-) I made up a folding windage adjustable rear sight for it, and I bet you can tell where the elevation portion came from?

http://www.fototime.com/F24AF897122CFE9/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/8C8714312BCD32C/standard.jpg

This one was a 'kit' if you will. A friend had all the pieces but had lost interest in it, so I was able to pick it up for $150 complete. He'd fitted the buttstock to the action, and had inlet the forend, but it was up to me to figure a way to 'stick' it under the barrel and have it hang there. The barrel has ratchet rifling too. Don't know it's provinence but it's well covered on the underside with criptic stampings. As it was it wouldn't clock to the action so I had to make a shaped washer to fit between the barrel shoulder and the action. It was fiddly work but ended up working perfectly.

http://www.fototime.com/F9E56DF8974F0BF/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/63F6D4CD001E053/standard.jpg

Happily there was a threaded 'boss' on the underside of the barrel but I'm danged if I could ever figure what the threads were. Probably some communistic heathen metric foolishness (ahem!). However it was close to 1/4 something or other and LOOKED like fine threads so on the lathe I kept infeeding after tries on the barreland knocking the crests down with a file I finally got it. Spent more time setting back up to pickup the thread then anything else. Got the bolt made, and had previously bored the forend and made an escutchen. I fire blued them and put it together. Even managed to clock the screw (believe I could feel the threads stretch a bit in the process, HA!).

I have a MkIV Martini also dated 1887, it remains as issued in 577-470, no photo of it by itself. Since you have a beautifull sleek new rifle form the 1870's and a cartridge from the same time, maybe you should load some ammo from the same period?

http://www.fototime.com/505C4DBE991DA99/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg

Of course the ones on the left haven't been lubed yet. I don't shoot them much as it's a lot of lead to be sending downrange (505grs) but if I'm out of paper patched slugs I will. The patched ones are the Lee 405gr patched with 20 lb paper to .472" and loaded over 31.0grs of IMR3031 + dacron. From the MkIV's 33" bbl they go 1250 fps and will easily fetch the 200 meter ram. I also tried the 577-450 loaded with BP and a paper patched 450gr Lee (closest I had to the issue 480gr original). After the 3rd shot the left side of the rifle was covered in slobber, and I was looking for someone, anyone I could PAY to shoot off the remaining 17 rounds! I will admit that HM troops at Ruarke's Drift were mightily motivated, but they also had to have been manly men to stand that abuse shot after shot, and hour after hour, heh, heh!

Once again, welcome aboard.

...............Buckshot

Beautiful rifle, and exellent use of a No.4 rear sight! That particular type of martini is quite rare- having the thumb-throw safety lever. Idle curiosity, does the safety release on the downwards throw or upwards throw?

The earlier models released on the downwards throw, this meant that with very little fiddling you could hold the trigger down with one finger and use your thumb to gently release the safety, working almost like a "Set trigger" system.

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Bane, Welcome to the board and glad to have you. I don't know what plans you have for your new rifle (and a beauty it is, too) but for just casual shooting and plinking, I sure suggest you invest in a 300gr slug. Less powder and lead going downrange and less wear and tear on you also One of my favorite loads in the 45-70 is the 292gr Lyman over varying charges of 2400, 4227, SR4759, or 4198. They're all accurate and at velocities of 13-1400 fps I've never had one bounce off the target paper yet.

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As it stands i have just secured an almost endless supply of lead, so i can shoot 500gr's all day long :Fire: In saying that i think the 405's are about as light as i would let myself go. Not because i like punishment but the rifle doesent seem (to me at least) to recoil as badly as i expected, when i was getting cases to reload all i could get on hand were a couple boxes of Hornady LeverEvolution, 60rds later i was feeling rather pleased with myself :drinks:

Of course, loading these 500grs will see!

I fully intend to use this as a hunting rifle more than a target/gong ringer aswell, so keeping to the loads i would use for hunting is probably a better bet.

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Don't know it's provinence but it's well covered on the underside with criptic stampings

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If you care to photograph the stampings/markings i would be more than happy to translate for you, i'm a bit of a Martini nut

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Happily there was a threaded 'boss' on the underside of the barrel but I'm danged if I could ever figure what the threads were. Probably some communistic heathen metric foolishness (ahem!). However it was close to 1/4 something or other and LOOKED like fine threads so on the lathe I kept infeeding after tries on the barreland knocking the crests down with a file I finally got it. Spent more time setting back up to pickup the thread then anything else. Got the bolt made, and had previously bored the forend and made an escutchen. I fire blued them and put it together. Even managed to clock the screw (believe I could feel the threads stretch a bit in the process, HA!).

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For future reference *ALL* threads on the Martini rifle are BA(British Association) Stupidest thread profiling *EVER*. with the only exeption being the barrel thread which is some bizarre 1" whitworth profile.

Where do you get your cases from in 577/450? in large quantities at all or home made?

Someone here would make a small fortune if they started supplying 577/450 cases!

Bane,

For 577-450 new brass try Jamison Intl. Good brass but not cheap.

http://www.jamisoninternational.com/...ji577450mh.htm

If you like Martinis, you aren't alone here :D In 17 Ackley Improved Bee.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...lw-6x24x50.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...provedBee3.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...provedBee6.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...provedBee4.jpg

SS

Holy **** that's nice!

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Originally Posted by Bane

Where do you get your cases from in 577/450? in large quantities at all or home made?

Someone here would make a small fortune if they started supplying 577/450 cases!

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..............The vast majority of my 577-450 brass is Bertram. Made in close by Australia. It would seem to me to be the least expensive brass for you? Here in the states Bertram brass is $108/20 cases, but Midway has had it (seldom) on sale for $83/20 once or twice in the past. I did buy some Jamison and Ten-X (Jamison but headstamped Ten-X) a few years ago, but haven't use'd any of it yet.

...............Buckshot

Busy wiping drool off of keyboard, that is one beautiful rifle, you should be very proud of it....steg

I recently loaded some shells for my Martini Mk. 4 577/450 using 38 grs. IMR 4198 and a 405 gr. boolit without a gas check. I filled the airspace between the powder and the bullet with Puff-Lon. The rifle shot 12-14" high at 100 yards. Will try 32 grs. 4198 with a 512 grainer next time. Puff-Lon looks like fine black sawdust and probably uses graphite as a lubricant. Anyway, there was no leading that I could see.

Very nice piece of work, Bane, really nice piece of wood, did you do the woodwork as well?

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Originally Posted by Bane

Good afternoon, all.

nt.



http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/IMG_1689.jpg

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For a professional touch when fitting butt pads, make them an extension of the stock lines, The belly should be one straight line from front to back, including the pad and not turning square. It's little things like that, that make differences between an amateur and professional

WOW!!! Some neat looking rifles here fellas.

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Originally Posted by Olevern

Very nice piece of work, Bane, really nice piece of wood, did you do the woodwork as well?

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Thankfully no, i'm not quite that advanced with my work at the moment, i did fit and finish it but the overall shaping had already been done previously

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Originally Posted by The Double D

For a professional touch when fitting butt pads, make them an extension of the stock lines, The belly should be one straight line from front to back, including the pad and not turning square. It's little things like that, that make differences between an amateur and professional

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Yessir, i had every intention to do exactly that however the exact buttplate i had picked was just too short so i couldn't effectively continue the lines, so i did the best i could without altering the timber too much

That is one beautiful piece of work. You should be very proud!!! Congratulation on such fine craftsmanship!!

I am applying for my FFL license in January and am opening a class 3 dealership locally in the summer. Are you SURE you dont want to come to the states? I need a gunsmith.

Haha thank you very much for the offer but i would like to expand on my skills some more before even considering myself semi-professional.


Sorry for the lack of update, my poor poor vehicle finally decided to die in a fire so things have been hectic of late, finally bit the boolit and got myself a new truck to replace the old runabout though, so back in business!


As for the shooting.. i have had to completely rethink everything i understood about reloading lead, big bore rifles and accuracy. (Which wasent much to start with actually)

At the range the previous week, i managed to achieve 1" groupings at 109 yards (100m) utilizing 480 grain, spire point flat-based non gaschecked projectiles, using 43 gr of H4198.

Had a little bit of problem with leading later in the day, but this was well into a box of 100rds of ammo (i think i noticed the leading around about load #40) accuracy didn't seem to suffer from it, and the leading was little more than superficial as 90% of it came out with a brushing of the bore. Will be tweaking my lube formula a fraction (was running 50/50 beeswax/olive oil but it seemed a little bit soft so will add some more beeswax and try to bring it up to 60/40 or 65/35)

Most impressive group was the first three shot sighting in group of the day, i inadvertently managed to flinch the third shot, but the first two neatly placed side-by-side in the target, still equaled a 2" grouping even after flinching the third shot.

Will be backing the load off a fraction, more for the sake of my shoulder, more than anything else!

Also invested in a 405gr boolit mould, so will be trying those out in due course :)

Too bad you don't have stash of Martini actions.... ou'd have a ready market for your work here in the states.....
I remember 40 years ago when nearly fresh surplush could be had at give away prices.....but who wanted something you couldn't buy ammo for???
The years of youth failed to see the graceful lines of these fine actions, and the endless potential as a basis for many "fine" grade rifles.
Thanks for sharing... you've done well.

Yes, sharpshooterthere AREother calibres other than 45-70


for example, 32-40, 38-55 and 40-65;-)

Nice looking rifle dude! Why not try black powder in it?

I have a copy of the Lyman Gould Hollow Point mould, 330Gn HP, period correct for Black powder and a good hunting boolit, definetly strong enough for anything in Australia or NZ.

I have that sight on an M17 Remington. Mine must be older as it is just branded Parker, not Parker Hale.

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Originally Posted by Bane

Good afternoon, all.

Slight introduction first. I'm not new to shooting, however to casting projectiles and reloading i am very new. And am after a little bit of help. I am a newly-qualified Engineer & Toolmaker, from New Zealand, with dreams of becoming a qualified Gunsmith.

So of course, when it came the days to do a sort of "Final project" to finish my apprenticeship, the solution was simple.

I had an old Martini-Enfield action rusting away i collected from a good mate, with a bit of cleaning it came up very nicely- then the hard bit. Calibre? After some thought, i spotted an old double-rifle book i had.. and came up with .45-70. Some digging later, i found a chap locally manufacturing barrels. Received the barrel blank a week later. Machining, fitting took about a week, bluing was done by hand, the barrel is 28" long 1" diameter heavy bull profile sights are modified Pattern14 Parker-Hale diopter rear with Globe front.

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/IMG_1691.jpg
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/IMG_1690.jpg
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/IMG_1689.jpg

Now to the thick of things.

I have two moulds, Lyman 405gr Flatnose/non gas checked, and Lyman 480gr spire point/non gas checked

The rifling in this particular rifle is 1-18" twist rate, i am trialing loads using 34gr of H4198 powder behind the 480 gr boolit(I'll get used to the terminology!)

So far its performing admirably, however i am still incredibly new to the reloading scene- i understand the engineering behind it but nothing beats experience!

So all i can ask is- any suggestions for where i should go from here to develop the most accurate loadings i can? Powder, load etc.

For reference, the rifle/action has been proofed to upper loads for Marlin lever guns, not quite Ruger #1 loadings however

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You did good, turned out simply beautiful.

[IMG][IMG]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...martini003.jpg[/IMG][/IMG]

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t.../schutzen3.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t.../aaaa22011.jpg

cadet that now is 357 mag.
Swiss built schutzen 30 A.I.
Greener built police shotgun converted to 45-70.
sure wish those parker hale sights were reasonably priced on this side of the pond.

Also try here http://www.lasc.us/brennan_6-6_loadaccuraterifle.htm
Lots of good stuff. There was a reference earlier in this thread but I don't think it covered this page.
Good Luck and beautiful rifles.
DHB

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Originally Posted by DHB

Also try here http://www.lasc.us/brennan_6-6_loadaccuraterifle.htm
Lots of good stuff. There was a reference earlier in this thread but I don't think it covered this page.
Good Luck and beautiful rifles.
DHB

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Theres a lot of common sense on that page!