308 hunting load

I was kinda reluctant to post this but here I go anyway. I have this Savage Axis 308 bolt-a with 22" barrel, 1-10 twist. Trying to work up a deer load using the following:

WLR primers
WW-Super 308 brass (all 2.006" trimmed)
IMR 4227 (20 grains)
Dacron- 1 grain
Lee C309-150-F (using gc's with pc'd bullets. Bullets range from 154-157 grains)

My question is, is I'm starting at 20 grains (yes I know Lyman says to start at 18.7 and max 25.5) and volume of powder in case looks to be about 25-30%. I have read bits and pieces in forum here that using a Dacron filler will improve accuracy but not necessarily needed. I don't want to have to be conscious about where powder is in cartridge, so I weighed out a bunch of Dacron at 1 grain each and tucked into each case (not tight!)

Also the Lyman #311672 at 160 gr's looks similar to the Lee bullet I'm using and closer to the weight. I originally cast these bullets with a 10-1 alloy but still came out a little heavy. The "ogive" looks to be slightly different on the Lyman. Ultimately, would one load by the "weight" or stick with load for that "mold"? (hope this makes sense)
Attachment 230648

Attachment 230649
(The 5 in forefront does not have Dacron)

If I have to use a ‘filler’, like Dacron, I’m finding a different powder.

And, I never could figure out your question...

I often start loads in the midrange. I usually don’t make ‘ladder loads’, or ‘work up’ loads either.

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I intentionally cracked open a "Tul-Ammo 308 cartridge to spy on powder and what kind of "case volume" was going on. There was 43.5 grains of ???? shown in pic below (almost looks like H335 but who knows). I estimated probably 50-60% volume.

Attachment 230650

This pic is powder from a Remington 30-06 165 gr Cor-Lok which weighed in at 54.5 grains.

Attachment 230651

So my biggest question is, what powder packs the most volume by weight for a 308 load?

If you are asking if you pick a load by the bullet weight or by the mold weight. Pick the loading for the mold style and if there isnt one then go by bullet weight. Most often my bullets dont have recipes so i just pick the closest bullet weight.

I would forgo the filler. Dont be afraid to bigg load test. You know what might wind up being accurate.

Savage Axis are good rifles.

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Trial and error is going to tell you what your gun likes. It will decide what powder and what velocity it wants to shoot.

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10-4 yes sir, the "proof is in the pudding". Appreciate the input!

I always load by bullet weight, or start at lowest powder charge for next heavier bullet. I'm just started a load work up for a NOE 312-159 and used IMR 4198 at starting 21 gr it filled the case about 50%, no filler, CCI LR, LC brass.

Have not got to the range with them yet but will get there if we get a nice weekend so I can chron them. Range sits at 8500 feet so it can be a little tough in the winter. I''l list the results when I do.

I have several .308s that shoot a 311284 over a case full of WC 860 well. I use the Fed 215 mag primer and the loads burn fairly clean. Backing off 1/2 grain of powder and using a small tuft of dacron usually shrinks groups slightly. Both loads are run compressed. You said you were looking for case volume this is it.;)

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Originally Posted by Loudenboomer

I have several .308s that shoot a 311284 over a case full of WC 860 well. I use the Fed 215 mag primer and the loads burn fairly clean. Backing off 1/2 grain of powder and using a small tuft of dacron usually shrinks groups slightly. Both loads are run compressed. You said you were looking for case volume this is it.;)

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Bingo. Thanks! That's what I'm looking for so WC 860 goes on list! Again, looking for others as well who answered who knows the 308 inside and out. This is for "educational purposes only" and whatever info I use real time is on me-that I understand.

Use that boolit in my 308 with 18 gr of 2400 without fillers very accurate .

I did try 23gr of H4227 under a Hi-tek coated 180gr Lee bore rider sized .310 and found it shot very well in my Omark 44, the only problem was the tight chamber required the necks be turned down so the rounds would chamber. No filler used. Regards Stephen

After reading your post twice I think your asking "what powder to use that I don't need Dacron " in a nutshell ? If that's what your asking I've shot a slew of 30-06 in reduced course 200 yd Highpower matches using 17.5 gr of 2400 and never once worried or had issues where the powder was positioned in the case . That load would shoot 10's and lots of X's at that range . So 2400 would be my choice an healthy load of Unique also works well there are other but I don't have first hand experience with them

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Originally Posted by RU shooter

After reading your post twice I think your asking "what powder to use that I don't need Dacron " in a nutshell ? If that's what your asking I've shot a slew of 30-06 in reduced course 200 yd Highpower matches using 17.5 gr of 2400 and never once worried or had issues where the powder was positioned in the case . That load would shoot 10's and lots of X's at that range . So 2400 would be my choice an healthy load of Unique also works well there are other but I don't have first hand experience with them

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Yes I've read in other forums that most recommend 2400 in large caliber rifle loads. From your memory, does it fill at least half the case? I will try the 2400. Other's suggested w748 and 3031. Just trial and error I reckon. My rifle might savor 3031 and the next guys gun might like 2400..... Thanks a bunch! I forgot about the VMD chart to give me an idea of finding least weight per CC....

I killed a nice buck with a .308 a few years ago and used the Ranchdog 165 grain .30-30 bullet, 28 grains of IMR 4895 with a small tuft of Dacron pillow filling on top. The bullet was fairly soft, 50/50 COWW to pure with 2% tin, and I'm guessing at 1800 FPS, but it went through from about the last rib on the near side to exit low and just forward of the far shoulder, deer went maybe 40 yards.

Your bullets look like they have a round nose profile, you may want to look around for a flat point design.

I have one 308 that shoots like house afire with 19.5 gr of 2400 (no filler) and 160 gr boolits while the another hates that load but loves 33 gr of 3031 with 180 to 190 gr boolits. Both have 1/10 twists. Trial and error is the name of the game. Either will do the job for deer.

Thanks everyone for the great advice, I have all the powders on my list, went to reloading store and they had everything BUT 5744- the powder that the book suggests the most. So I bought some Reloader 7. Also bought ANOTHER reloading manual (Lyman 50th). Can't have too many.

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Originally Posted by richhodg66

I killed a nice buck with a .308 a few years ago and used the Ranchdog 165 grain .30-30 bullet, 28 grains of IMR 4895 with a small tuft of Dacron pillow filling on top. The bullet was fairly soft, 50/50 COWW to pure with 2% tin, and I'm guessing at 1800 FPS, but it went through from about the last rib on the near side to exit low and just forward of the far shoulder, deer went maybe 40 yards.

Your bullets look like they have a round nose profile, you may want to look around for a flat point design.

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As a matter of fact, yes they are. I thought I had a "Lee Precision C309-150-F Double Cavity Mold". Went to check and it is in fact a "Lee Precision C309-160-R Double Cavity Mold"! I WILL be ordering another mold! (I wonder if I can file the end flat?)
Attachment 230793

If you can file consistent flats, then yes. Base condition affects accuracy more than nose condition. The flat provides the slap for hunting.

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Originally Posted by Dieselhorses

Thanks everyone for the great advice, I have all the powders on my list, went to reloading store and they had everything BUT 5744- the powder that the book suggests the most. So I bought some Reloader 7. Also bought ANOTHER reloading manual (Lyman 50th). Can't have too many.

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That same bullet except for the flat nose profile shoots great in my 700 in 308 Win.
I got good groups with RL 7 around 26 - 27 gr range if my memory serves me right no filler . Alloy WCWW's with 2 % tin . My next testing will involve IMR 30-31 and H4895 . I've been getting better results with the slower powders in my guns . My RL7 load is mid range from Lyman 49th

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I use dacron to fill the empty space in the case
powder position never seemed to matter
use filler in 30-30,35 Whelen and 358 win

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Originally Posted by sukivel

If I have to use a ‘filler’, like Dacron, I’m finding a different powder.

And, I never could figure out your question...

I often start loads in the midrange. I usually don’t make ‘ladder loads’, or ‘work up’ loads either.

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Originally Posted by Dieselhorses

Yes I've read in other forums that most recommend 2400 in large caliber rifle loads. From your memory, does it fill at least half the case? I will try the 2400. Other's suggested w748 and 3031. Just trial and error I reckon. My rifle might savor 3031 and the next guys gun might like 2400..... Thanks a bunch! I forgot about the VMD chart to give me an idea of finding least weight per CC....

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I have a fair bit of experience with W748 in cast. W748 requires a fair bit of pressure to get a consistent burn. Once you get there you probably have a fast accelerating load that stresses a cast boolit and requires a hard alloy and short nose to prevent slump.

While filler can help reduce loads a bit, dacron and fine ball powder is not a great combo for hunting, as the powder will migrate into the filler area very easily, if you tend to move or climb while hunting.

Also W748 is infamous for being temperature sensitive.

Accurate loads can be found with W748 and cast boolits, particularly with heavier for bore weights. It's just that the windows for accuracy are small, and can shift with temperature. The velocity for accuracy windows also may not match your alloy's and lube's abilities.

I have to chime in about the dacron filler. I have used dacron with my 30.30 and 30.06 with great repeatable results. Powder is usually 4895 or 2400. For me it tightens up the groups and I don't find it a hassle to use. I guess what I'm trying to say is don't be afraid to try the dacron when and where it is suggested by Larry Gibson's article. For my hunting loads I'm in no hurry to make rounds as I want the most accurate and dependable round I can make with cast. Last year I made 5 rounds for my 30.06. I used 1 round last year to kill a 5 point. This year I used a round to kill a 6 point and another 2 rounds on an 8 point. I'm down to 1 round now so I'll have to take a few minutes and get the round count built back up. I've killed 5 deer since I began casting about 5 years ago so for me the dacron is going in my hunting rounds with 4895. Of course different powders are not to be used for dacron. The thing is what works for you and what will make you happy.

Dacron is too cheap not to use when appropriate, I get mine from all the stuffed animals my dogs chew up.

Slim

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Originally Posted by marshall623

That same bullet except for the flat nose profile shoots great in my 700 in 308 Win.
I got good groups with RL 7 around 26 - 27 gr range if my memory serves me right no filler . Alloy WCWW's with 2 % tin . My next testing will involve IMR 30-31 and H4895 . I've been getting better results with the slower powders in my guns . My RL7 load is mid range from Lyman 49th

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Good to hear, I loaded 20 with 25.5 and each 10 thereafter increased by a grain up to 28.5. I'll see what that does and post results after Friday. The RL 7 -even with 25 grains fills up case enough to not worry with filler BUT you know what, eventually I'll try it both ways. Needless to say my wife thinks I'm loading lipstick instead of bullets because of color. What is your 700's twist Marshall623?

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Originally Posted by Dieselhorses

Good to hear, I loaded 20 with 25.5 and each 10 thereafter increased by a grain up to 28.5. I'll see what that does and post results after Friday. The RL 7 -even with 25 grains fills up case enough to not worry with filler BUT you know what, eventually I'll try it both ways. Needless to say my wife thinks I'm loading lipstick instead of bullets because of color. What is your 700's twist Marshall623?

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This might crazy but I dont have a clue , I bought it new when I was 13 and Im 48 now .But check it this weekend .

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Originally Posted by Friends call me Pac

I have to chime in about the dacron filler. I have used dacron with my 30.30 and 30.06 with great repeatable results. Powder is usually 4895 or 2400. For me it tightens up the groups and I don't find it a hassle to use. I guess what I'm trying to say is don't be afraid to try the dacron when and where it is suggested by Larry Gibson's article. For my hunting loads I'm in no hurry to make rounds as I want the most accurate and dependable round I can make with cast. Last year I made 5 rounds for my 30.06. I used 1 round last year to kill a 5 point. This year I used a round to kill a 6 point and another 2 rounds on an 8 point. I'm down to 1 round now so I'll have to take a few minutes and get the round count built back up. I've killed 5 deer since I began casting about 5 years ago so for me the dacron is going in my hunting rounds with 4895. Of course different powders are not to be used for dacron. The thing is what works for you and what will make you happy.

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Your point isn't gone unnoticed. Like they say "One shot-One kill!" In my book, a little extra time using a filler can be worth a lot! Why circumvent a step when it just might pay off big time! No I'm not no where experienced as most here but I listen. Where there is "proof" there is "justification". Thanks for sharing!

I need to clarify about only loading up 5 hunting rounds. The 5 hunting rounds contain a bullet that is 50:50 soft lead and wheel weight. After a few rounds I need to clean the barrel. So I'm not saying I load 5 shots and I'm done. I practice with WW or Lyman #2 all year and save the hunting bullets for hunting. I use dacron in my target rounds so everything is the same as my hunting round except for the lead mix.

I use a chop stick to seat the dacron.

Brief update: The rounds I had previously loaded with Dacron I had loaded with 20 grs of IMR4227 and was hitting 12 oz. beer can all day at 100 yards. Still have a lot of testing to do.

For my Win 88/308 I'm getting excellent groups and "downed" game results (1x moose, 2x Whitetail deer).
I'm casting the Lee 200gr RNGC boolit, IMR 3031, CCI LR primer and IVI brass.
This boolit is travelling at about 2200 fps.
http://i63.tinypic.com/2nw2ywj.jpg

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Originally Posted by Huntsman

For my Win 88/308 I'm getting excellent groups and "downed" game results (1x moose, 2x Whitetail deer).
I'm casting the Lee 200gr RNGC boolit, IMR 3031, CCI LR primer and IVI brass.
This boolit is travelling at about 2200 fps.

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Moose? Impressive! What alloy about are you using?

Dieselhorses,
At the time I was using a Lyman #2 alloy which I modified slightly in order to get the Brinell hardness that I wanted.
I now use just COWW. These mushroom nicely!

I too have gotten very good accuracy in my Savage 99 308's (under 2 MOA) using Reloder 7 in the 25 grain range under 150 grain RCBS flatpoints and the 311413 (about 170 grain).

My 10 year old grandson killed his first deer using a Savage Axis in .308 Win. The buttstock was shortened to fit him better. Load was 29 grains of IMR 3031 behind a Lyman 31141 cast with wheel weights, powder coated, and then finished off with a Hornaday gas check. One shot into the brisket and out through the ribs did the trick. She ran about 50 yards but left an easy to follow blood trail.

Attachment 231438

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Originally Posted by Doughty

My 10 year old grandson killed his first deer using a Savage Axis in .308 Win. The buttstock was shortened to fit him better. Load was 29 grains of IMR 3031 behind a Lyman 31141 cast with wheel weights, powder coated, and then finished off with a Hornaday gas check. One shot into the brisket and out through the ribs did the trick. She ran about 50 yards but left an easy to follow blood trail.

Attachment 231438

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You're a good Granddad. Congrats to the hunter!

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Originally Posted by Doughty

My 10 year old grandson killed his first deer using a Savage Axis in .308 Win. The buttstock was shortened to fit him better. Load was 29 grains of IMR 3031 behind a Lyman 31141 cast with wheel weights, powder coated, and then finished off with a Hornaday gas check. One shot into the brisket and out through the ribs did the trick. She ran about 50 yards but left an easy to follow blood trail.

Attachment 231438

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Nice deer there! 3031 is one of the powders I plan on testing.

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Originally Posted by MostlyLeverGuns

I too have gotten very good accuracy in my Savage 99 308's (under 2 MOA) using Reloder 7 in the 25 grain range under 150 grain RCBS flatpoints and the 311413 (about 170 grain).

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That's interesting. If my Lee mold C309-170-F is anywhere close to the 311413 going to test in my rifle. Still waiting on an order of 5744 that Lyman 50th mentions a lot. I wonder if anyone here has tested 5744?

I use toilet paper as a filler in my 45-70 .works well just leaves some paper ash confetti on the floor .

My first experimentation with cast in a high powered rifle years ago was a Rem M788 in .308. The most accurate load I found was a Lyman 311291 with 30 gns of IMR 3031 (no filler). As I recall I was getting right around 2000 FPS and it was deadly on GA deer and hogs.