Howdy all, just looking to see how many stick with traditional muzzle loader styles? Hawken, Plains, Pensilvainia, ect. ? I have never liked in-lines and will not own one, so I'm always looking for others like myself.
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Howdy all, just looking to see how many stick with traditional muzzle loader styles? Hawken, Plains, Pensilvainia, ect. ? I have never liked in-lines and will not own one, so I'm always looking for others like myself.
Never cared much for the in-line types. I have a good friend that builds traditional types from scratch and they are absolutely fine shooters and pleasing to the eye as well. My remaining M/L is a 13ga double with european walnut in the english configuration. I haven't had a M/L rifle in house for several years.
TC Hawken made from a kit about 78. 50 cal that has never seen plastic down the bore. It has had an adaptor put on it to shoot small rifle primers rather than caps more for cost and availabilty than ignition problems. Also a 50 cal Lyman plains pistol that unfortunetly has never been blooded but has punched some paper. Gianni.
I won't even let one in the shop. My partner turned down a hunting show for Cabella's as they wanted him to shoot a White. He said he would rather eat horse dung on live TV.
Nuff' Said
I shoot an older traditional TC .54 Renegade from the first or second year of production. I guess that makes it an antique... More than a few years back, I installed a receiver (peep) sight, put a recoil pad on the stock, chopped about six inches off the barrel, and milled a new front sight out of brass to make a really nice handling carbine for hunting in the thick of things. (A coulple of years later, they started making the "White Mtn. Carbine".) It shoots my home cast 430gr Maxi-Balls, 3" 5shots at 100yds. Last year, I got a new drop-in for it in the same caliber from Green Mtn. This one shoots my home cast Lee 228gr .45 HP's with TC sabots, 1" 5shots at 100yds. :lovebooli In the woods or at the range it's one of my favorite rifles and however much they chuckle when I bring it out, their eyes go wide when they see how it shoots. :shock:
As I have mentioned before, here and elsewhere, I really enjoy watching the range rats show up a week before m/l season opens, stuff three pellets into their brandy new in-lines and fire no more than three shots, the last two flinching noticably, then put the rifles back into their cars and tear up the targets before heading home with bruised shoulders. :oops: I just keep on shooting until the fouling builds up enough to make loading a little harder, 20-30 shots. I think the hard plastic of the sabots cleans a lot of the fouling as they're rammed home.
To those who would bemoan my use of the plastic sabot as "untraditional", I have this to say: Yes, plastic is relatively new, but sabots themselves have been in use for hundreds of years, originally made of wood (hence the name, French for "wooden shoe") and used in cannon, but they were also used in small arms. When you really stop to think about it, what is a round ball's patch for and how does it work? Paper patches on BPCR bullets? Don't they serve the same function as a sabot? Traditional? Do you wear waterproof boots, Gore-Tex jackets and hats when the rain/sleet/snow is blowing horizontally and you're crossing streams and tramping through swamps? How about blaze orange Ten-Mile cloth, plastic lenses in your plastic-framed glasses, two-way radios, GPS units, MRE's and plastic-wrapped chocolate bars? Is your tree stand made from aluminum or a fancy alloy and what about the camo paint? [smilie=1: Or do you still cook in cast iron pots over an open fire, ride a horse to the range or to your favorite deer stand? Was your rifle made on a water-powered lathe and rifled by pounding over a mandrel by hand? The furniture made by a real live blacksmith in a coal forge? :holysheep How traditional do you want to/ have to be?
For me, it is enough that I can use a traditional caplock rifle that is still basically Civil War era technology and out-shoot most of the modern in-lines by a significant margin. The point is to have fun, isn't it? :smile:
Well I can't afford all the above mentioned toys, and still use cast iron cookware (griswalds). I hear what your saying about where do you draw the line on traditions. For me it depends on how I'm feeling at the time I guess. I've made my own horn messures, cut my patches with a forged blade and use hornit nest as a buffer to the pillow ticking. I tried sabots years ago when I worked for a gunsmith in Santa Barbara due to customers asking how they worked... so I tested em out, didn't like em personaly.
I guess I got into Black Powder shooting becuse I liked going back to the early basics. I don't begrudge those who want to try to modernize it, I would not myself, but more power to ya. My guns are modern replicas but I try to get as much hand finishing and custom touches as I can. Reminds me I need to get that .40 flinty started, found a couple molds for it... so why not :bigsmyl2:
............My ML'ers aren't really hunting rifles (they could be) but are repros of military, ie: P58 Naval pattern Enfield, or target rifles, ie: Rigby and Whitworth. Had one of the drivers the other day walk up and haul a well flattened slug out of his pocket, and announced he'd gotten himself a buck first day of the season in Oklahoma.
He's a pure meat hunter. I asked him what the rifle was. He said it was just a $89 inline from Wal-Mart. I asked about the slug and he didn't have a clue. It was just some he'd bought at Wal-Mart. Powder charge was, "2 a them 50gr pellets they sell."
I will suppose inlines have their place and are certainly useable. A frequenter of the range has or had some tie with White Systems. He's used one in Africa every year for the past 10-12 or so. Uses an NEI mould for a 520gr slug that was designed to be paper patched in cartridge rifles. White systems has a special sabot to utilize it.
...............Buckshot
I have three traditionals, and wouldn't allow one of the new plastic guns in the house. I have a twenty bore NW tradegun, an Alexander Henry English sporter, a Beckwith style Pennsylvania, and a couple pistols around, one Pedersoli, and one I built.
I dunno.....what difference does it make? If you like pretending to be Daniel Boone, use a traditional. If you like the looks of an in-line use that. Makes no big difference to me. I have both.......not a big fan of BP in any form. It's filthy, a PITA to clean up after and just doesn't do anything for me.
But yes, I have played with it. I have a .36 squirrel rifle built from a 60's era Dixie kit.....shoots quite well. I have had one TC flinter....yuck! I have had one TC Hawken, 2 of the el cheapo Caeblla's Hawkens and a TC .54 in-line...SS with all the bells and whistles. I quit using it and went back to the $69 Cabellas because it is so light and cleans quickly with it's hooked breech.
They are just a hunting tool for me. I've killed critters with all of them and the 36 is the most fun and you'd be surprised at what a 65 grain ball will do. I have no qualms with shooting a deer with it....kills them dead as hell. Cut the head right off a squirrel.
I also have both. A Lyman .50 cal Plains Rifle and a CVA .50 cal Optima Pro inline. Each has it's place for my own personal needs/desires. I have taken big game with both and enjoy shooting both very much. I admit taking game with the Plains Rifle is more satisfying, but sometimes I want a little more reach.
I'm not a totally hidebound traditionalist, but my frontloaders are all Hawken or Civil War patterns. I also use only The Holy Black in these rifles--one in 32 (Traditions Crockett), one in 54 (T/C Hawken) and an Italian Zouave replica in 58. Roundballs are also a strong preference. I also have four cap-and-ball replica revolvers--one in 31 (1849 Pocket), two in 36 (an 1851 and an 1861), and one in 44 (1860). Again, it's RB's and THB in these rollers.
I have allways liked military weapons of the Civil war era so that is what I shoot.My first BP rifle was a Italian pipe bomb :] [cheep zouave] Think I gave 68 bucks for it with a tin of musket caps,lb of bp and a bunch of badly cast minnes. That was pushing 35 years ago.
Anyway now I still shoot muskets.Like to build my own from orgional parts guns. Just cant get into the plastic versions.Lot of meat hunters do though.
Shooter575,
I just saw a bumper sticker the other day that read "Don't worry about what people think, they do it so seldom." There are many paths to happiness.
There's a guy a know not far from here that has the care of the rifle his g'g'grandfather carried in the Civil War. Every so often I go and visit. Holding history, real solid wood-and-metal history in my hands always brings my ego back to a healthy size. I don't need to shoot that one, though it has been well cared for and he might even let me if I asked. To me it is like a holy relic. My old Renegade keeps me enough in touch with what it was like for them and puts the food on the table. The crack of the cap and the foom of the charge going off hasn't changed over time, but the Pyrodex smells a little better and no one shoots back.
It's the history of it for me, so I "don't have no truck " with in-lines, sabots or pellets. Fortunately, the state of Oregon is in line (sorry) with my thinking and has banned most such devices during muzzlelader seasons. The boys are welcome to use their scoped in-lines during the regular seasons, though. I am currently down to a two-band Enfield I hope to sell in order to help pay for a couple of Pecatonica kits. My wish list includes the Rigby kit, such as Buckshot's; the Schuetzen kit for offhand work with conicals and fast-twist barrels; and the Tulle -- the purtiest firearm ever designed, to my eye. I have had a lot of fun with Lyman Great Plains rifles, though. I also like a Colt 1860 or a Remington 1858 in a cross-draw holster. Have also been lucky enough to own and shoot original Merrill and Maynard Civil War carbines.
I have a T/C Hawken in .45 cal that I bought in 1975. I shoot pyrodex "P" with patched roundballs or maxiballs, and I have used Butler Creek poly patches when I could get them. I liked the old style poly patch with the double concave wnds better, as I could put some lube in the bottom, and just a dab under the ball. I don't even know if they are still made anymore....
100% Traditional style ML's. Have a .54 Cabelas hawkin Hunter and a .54 TC Renegade. Both perc.
Have both and enjoy both , life is like a buffet, sometimes you got to sample everything!
I've got a nice TC Hawken 50cal.
A lyman Deerstalker bored to 20ga. Nice performer!
And I don't care for inlines but I fell in love with, and got a steal of a deal on a new Knight 12ga turkey gun all camo, witih the gold medallion in the stock and it is one fine quality shotgun.
Couldn't bare to use plastic inserts, so I installed a #11 cap nipple.
Didn't have time to get my first turkey this year, but will soon.
Oh yea... Got 3 screw in chokes to.. 8)
Going to be piecing together a 58 hawken soon if my buddy doesn't give up his old monster. I'm going to be looking to buy .570 and .575 steel RB single cavity moulds in a few (after I get the Bbl) any makers I should be looking at?
I picked up a .32 CVA squirrel gun at a pawn shot, and was hooked. I then got a cheap CVA .50 inline for my first deer rifle. I've now got another CVA .50 in trade, and traded a .36 TC for a .32 Dixie poorboy. I would like a White, and I would like to trade a Colt 1903 for a pair of sidelock .45's at this weekends GunShow in Birch Run from someone I met there the last time. I'm hoping he shows with the charcoal burners & we're up on trade. I'm leaning more & more to the traditional rifles, but I'm not about to talk trash to anyone that thinks different, as we need more shooters, not less. Still, I made meat with mine using a patched RB, and both chubby does dropped dead in their tracks. The biggest thing the inlines have going for them is easier to scope.
The Bi-Centennial, 1976, was a big influenece on me. That being said, I consider the non-traditionals something "less" than a real muzzle loader. NY's muzzle loader season was intended to offer a week of additional hunting season to those using traditional black powder muzzle loaders. It has morphed into nothing less than a second season. Scopes do not belong on a ML. Shooting saboted jacketed bullets is not primitive. Bolt action muzzle loaders are not traditional. They should not be allowed during the muzzle loader season. Just my opinion. Yes, I want more shooters, but calling a White System rifle a "muzzle loader" is streching the intention of the reason for the season. If they were to have a speacial "In Line" season that would be more appropriate.
I too believe in the traditional is more better don't cha no. I do own an inline but I prefer to hunt with my side hammer .45 kentucky rifle. My hawkens .50 and my pendersoli 10 gauge shotgun .... all replicas wish they were originals. Even have a couple of remington revolvers cap and ball .Wish I had a .32 squirrel rifle to go with them. I do collect old military rifles as well....just somethin about the way they feel and the history behind them. The feel of the wood and steel and the events in history they went through along with the young men that used them. Sure wish those old rifles could tell their story. 8mmshooter
The T/C Fire Hawk would be about as new-fangled as I would be willing to go as far as a "New style" ML was conserned. I'm just goofy for half-stocks, working on a list of T/C Hawkens to start a moden collection. See how it goes...
What I really like about the older traditional guns is the fancy wood. The striped maple and fancy walnuts are beautiful!
Then there is the quality and workmanship that is put into these guns. The carvings and inlays, WOW!
and I just tinker with simple ole Underhammers. :roll:
I do not get the same level of satisfaction with modern guns as I do with flintlocks.
Im new to ML'ers
But I own a cva 32 squirrel and a cva bobcat. the last few years if went fom mauser rifle building to (just starting) ML building. When I get a bug I get it all the way. I jumped into archery the same way and now im putting down the compound and using longbows. So I am an advocate of traditional with holy black only. Inlines are nice but to easy, it takes some of the challenge out of it. This has all come about because I can shoot comfortably out to 500 yards iron sights so having to get, any game into about 50 yards is real hunting. :lovebooli
Another traditional fan here. Been shooting them since 1975. A guy at work got me started with a kentucky long rifle kit. Never have owned or shot an in-line...odds are never will.
Traditional, here. Inlines give me the fantods.
What gripes me is that I pushed for a M/L season from 1971 till the first season in 1984??? Our premise for the season was slow reloads, limited range and power and the general difficulty of the sport. Now I see where the inlines are bragging about being 100% waterproof and accurate and powerful out to 300 yards and they reload with a bullet glued to a stick of powder. M/L season has become an extra chance for the greedy to harvest another deer. The inlines have brough very little into the primitive clubs and now the guys with the flinters are out there competing with the same thing we petitioned for a special season to get away from.
But then again I won't shoot a bow with wheels either.
That's a good argument to be anti- inline.
I only have an inline turkey shotgun cause it's real pretty camo, and has a gold medallion in the stock.. :bigsmyl2: :bigsmyl2:
Some states such a Pennyslvania started with a primitive season that means a primitive flintlock with patched roundball and iron sights only. I think they modified that to almost the same except you can you use a conical I heard. My point is PA also has a BP season where any sort of muzzleloader is okay. You PA forum members correct me if I'm wrong. Now, If I had my choice of a BP season with inlines or no season at all which you think I would pick? Yup right, inline season. There are other greedy ways of getting more deer and one of them is illegal. I'd rather see a primitive season that gets a hunter out there true and honest. I'd rather see a young kid hunt primitive season with an inline then not hunt at all and play they foolish damn video games.
Joe
Also have to agree with the in-line issue. If it gets people into the sport, great. Now we traditionalists have a little easier job of converting them to real BP shooting.
I would love to see a bit of re-doing the ML season hunting regs but I know that the lobbists for in-lines will be the loudest, look at the common blackpowder Co's output now days, almost every rifle they offer is an in-line. What I would like to see is the powder and load written up to restrict the speed of loading. Load sticks need to go away, I would love to see sabots go away but it would be argued that a patched roundball is a sabot of sorts.
Ok my brain hurts and I'm going on to something pleasent...
Most definitely a traditionalist!!!!! I have a .65caliber flintlock trade gun (smoothbore) and a .54 caliber Hawken fullstock that were both made by me. I shoot from my bag at the shoots and people look at me like I am crazy. Biut it keeps me close to my ancestors!!! FWIW, moodyholler
I shoot a flintlock only - It was hard to allow my son's perc. in the door....but what can a guy do? :-)
Anyway - Cabela's .54 HAwken copy (Eric re-worked to make it shootable)
The rifle is actually made in Spain - can't remember off hand who. Learned my lesson on copies, repro's, etc. If you want it done right - you have to do it yourself. It took me ALOT of time and effort to get this things consistently on paper at 50yds......new sights, mods to sights, lock "tuning" and adjustment, etc, etc....long saga.
Oregon has ML seasons - the particulars are as follows
peep or open sights
open ignition (inlines or 209 primers not allowed) Yippy!
Lead projectiles only (YES!!!!)
no plastic, sabot's, artificial wads, etc... (OH YEAH)
No fiber optic sight inserts or scopes
The list goes on and I can't remember it all off-hand.... but the gist of it is percussion or flintlock only with inlines, closed breech percussion and other modern designs excluded from the ML seasons. If people choose to use the modern ML's in general center fire rifle seasons they can.
I like flinter's myself. Reason? Just cuz...if I am going to make it challenging why not make it challenging? I'm out there to have fun and hone my skills - not to "cheat" and carry a center fire rifle in ML clothes or use some exotic "wonder bullet" to compensate for poor shot placement. THe proper projectiles are simple - lead ball, lead minnie ball or REAL bullet from Lee. This is one concession I had to make (they shot REAL Good from my rifle!) There are others that work too - Maxi, maxi-hunter, etc, etc.
There is no ignition timing difference in a properly tuned flinter and a good percussion operating correctly. This, I guess is a lost art so to speak - luckily there was an old timer nearby who past on the tricks to me. Nothing complicated - but very very necessary conversion to a "factory" lock. Take a wait a minute deer and hold still gun - to a wham never new what hit-em' gun.
There!
Done rambling..... OH I almost forgot - Black powder is the ONLY propellant.
For those of you scared of the "corrosion" issues - you have nothing to fear from black powder if you follow a simple routine. Fire gun - clean gun. All you need for cleaning is simple - water, plain old water, use ZERO petroleum / synthetic based lube or protectant (unless you plan to remove it completely before firing). In the field I can clean my rifle after a one shot or two at game before I walk up to make sure the critter expired. Basically it takes about 2 minutes to clean and protect. The hype about black is pushed way out there in left field to promote these "subs" to black. If you use them and like them - good for you. If you find ignition spotty or difficult - switch to another one. If you want rapid reliable ignition - black is your answer. If anyone has specific questions on the flintlock or my cleaning techniques just drop me an email or whatever.
Ok.....done rambling I promise
Ejjuls,
Very interesting post. I have a percussion and have thought about getting a flintlock. If you would be willing to post your lock tuning tricks, I'm sure there are many here that would be all ears.
-Todd
I will do just that!
I need to take some pictures of my lock and such and put together a thoughtful easy to follow instructions.....
Give me a couple of days and I will post a new topic on "geeting flintlocks to go boom - instead of swishsshhhhsshhhh....pause.....boom"!
Hope everyone enjoys.....glad to hear I can actually contribute something useful!!
:-)
Eric
Ejjuls, you know, even if all you have to say is "Yes, I think so, too. That's how it worked with mine.", that's still something useful and important. It adds a lot to one simple posting when others agree, or also when they disagree. There are a lot of us who explore threads on things we know nothing about just to stretch our minds a little in a new direction, and every opinion adds a little more to the process. If you get a thread where someone says something off the wall and there are NO replies at all, then we get the general impression he might be a sandwitch or two short of a picnic, [smilie=1: but when someone comes along with a "Yeah, it seems strange, but I tried it and it really worked.", then we have food for thought and the motivation to try something new to see if it might work for us, too.
Of course, when you have something major to teach us, that's even better. Flintlocks are a fascinating subject and there are too few people around that know much about them. Don't hesitate to go on for a few pages or more about all of the little things that "everybody knows", because I, for one, do not and would like to. I seriously doubt that I am the only one, either. Start up a new thread like "State of the Art:1700's", we'll keep you busy answering questions for a while. :D
I like my Lyman Great Plains. I've never owned an in-line, but I may experiment with one some day- I like anything with a trigger! My personal direction is retro- my next move will be from percussion to flint, then from rifle to smoothbore. I think it's about personal experience, and the experience one is seeking, more than about the tools we use.
As far as hunting, I'll use a modern centerfire during that deer season, and a traditional during ML season. If an in-line gets someone interested in the sport, more power to them- then I'll take them to a Rendezvous, let them smell real black powder, start them casting RBs, and somewhere along the way they'll see the light.
BTW, Santa's bringing my 8 year old a 50 cal CVA for Christmas; traditional style, of course!
Stay safe,
Doug
P.S. Looking forward to your flintlock thread, EJJULS!
Here is a good link on how to tune up a C/W musket lock. Most info should apply to any traditional lock
Ejjuls Like to see your lock tuning tips also
http://www.nwtskirmisher.com/useful-locks.shtml
Dr. Doug,
I agree with you whole heartedly on "personal experience". Good point. You got your son a ML for Christmas eh. You rock! My son was about that age when I got him his first gun, also for Christmas (.22 rim fire). Since then he used money he saved from mowing lawns to buy his own deer rifle and 12 ga. He lives to hunt and doesn't do dumb things like drugs and alcohol. When kids are engaged in a healthy time consuming hobby, they tend to stay on the right path.