Or a semi-solid like poly-grip? :bigsmyl2:
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yes b-wax isn't completly necessary.
we have worked it around mainly because it is stable in the temperatures we are trying to work within.
it's not the only game in town though.
that stuff max showed might be the middle modifier we need to bolster the soap lube.
Mikey, you may have one of his older versions, probably same stuff Bruce has. His new stuff isn't burnt at all (is translucent, in fact) and smells like LBT Blue with a hint of hot paint can liner coating (if you haven't smelled that, I can't describe it).
I strongly believe based on what I've seen so far that a small percentage of ester-based two-stroke oil (NOT PAO-based like Dominator) will take care of the gummy-ness of the wax at low temps, at least to a certain point, probably close to zeroF. 2-3% does a lot. The lube shooting dry helps a bunch, too, which is the primary point of interest with the high-percentage soap lubes (and that they can take high storage temperatures without melting).
Thanks for the tip on the petrolatum, that's about what I was after. I only wonder if any of these slacky wax/petrolatums are really any better thand Alox 350.
Gear
Way back, I worked with Joe on his soap lube quest, we were talking about how LBT has such a high percentage of stearic in it. Joe mentioned that he had tried straight Irish Spring as a lube and it worked pretty good. I had just made up a batch with a pretty good % of dried, powdered Ivory in it and warned Joe how it would foam up pretty good on you. I was using some of Mike HD vaseline along with BW and MicroWax about 50/50. I melted the vaseline and micro first and then incorporated the Ivory. Once it was all mixed in, I turned off the heat for a bit, then stirred in small pieces of BW and the Yaley die. Never had it burn on me like Joe's first hockey pucks. I wanted the BW addition cause I found that straight microwax lubes didn't play well with my Saeco luber. They had a very narrow plastic range before turning into goose chit. Made a similar adjustment to Mike's MML too.
I realize the function of beeswax is to extend the plastic range of the mirco waxes but what if Carnauba (in lesser quantities) is substituted for beeswax? I have about four pounds of T3 Carnauba and would be willing to trade some of it for a couple pounds each of BW-408 and BW-430 (or similar). IIRC, I paid about $10/pound for the T3.
MJ
P.S. I thought I would add some targets from today's shoot. Granted the weather is not extreme here anymore (or ever) but I got no cold start flyers with just soap, mineral oil, beeswax and a 1/2 Tbs of Jojoba (in 7.5 oz of lube).
Target order: First 3 from a cold, squeaky clean barrel, next 5 and final 4 and now I need to cast some more Lee 309-170's. Actually, I did get some group movement from right to left, but I was also scraping the bottom of my boolit-barrel, so to speak. Velocity was a tad above 1900 fps... again, not very extreme. The range was 75 yards, the orange spot is 3/4" in diameter and the twist 1:10". I'm starting to get the impression that boolit lube needs to be more like putty than lube.
P.P.S. Upon checking my loading notes, the last group of 4 was shot with boolits having noses that were only .0010-.0015" out of round while the first eight rounds were loaded with boolits having noses .0020" or better out of round.
That's right, some of them do, and whether the lube is thixotropic (viscosity disappears under pressure/movement) or not has everything to do with the wax/petrolatum components. Beeswax works much better in this regard, but Joe's latest versions of lube don't go thin when smeared around or extruded like most of the stuff I've made with petro waxes. I keep telling everyone he's using a very special wax that we can't ID, and a mystery petrolatum/wax that seems to make all the difference. I'm up to over 50 batches of soap lube now and have only recently begun to sorta duplicate the good qualities his lube has, but I'm blending five or six waxes and petrolatums together to get close. So there IS a way to make a quality lube without beeswax, I think, and that's only if Joe's wax doesn't have any beeswax in it. Maybe it does, but I seriously doubt it because it can take over 500F without even discoloring and has an SG spot-on with a similar flexy commercial wax which is a LOT lighter than beeswax per water/alcohol concentration tests.
Gear
So lithium grease is too soft as temps go up. What if a small amount, like 5 or 10 percent, lithium grease is used in a sodium grease based lube?
I see lots of stuff with multiple waxes, what about multiple greases? Can the potential negaties of lithium actually be beneficial in very small amounts?
I think, that is scary, that this may have been tried but I don't have the energy to review 78 pages right now!
We covered multiple greases pretty well early on in this. Remember Lamar's E-lubes had several thickeners. I've used sodium and lithium together, had some bad reactions and some good, but didn't find a benefit. I think you and I discussed the tri-stearate concept based on a 1942 patent I found for a Li/Na/Mg grease which was specifically designed to be non-thixotropic. If the proportions are right, it's supposed to make a very stable base. I didn't try it on account of not having any "Mg Stearate", which as such seems to not exist, although there are plenty of other magnesium salts that are close. We also didn't have any lithium stearate at the time, and Bruce381 supplied us with some for testing, some of which I still have. Felix wax concerned about barrel fouling from the Mg, same as with Alox calcium crud.
I still want to try it, but sodium alone is doing quite well so far so I didn't pursue the Tri-Stearate idea any further.
Gear
I have wondered that myself because when I was full out playing with lubes and I substituted the Trenton micro/slackwax/ jelly equally for Alox350 I could see no functional difference...the only difference was the lack of the alox smell. I also noticed that if properly "balanced/blended" by manipulating the recipe one could arrive at the same place using many different ingredients.
Sometimes I even think that the consistency/softness/hardness/slip/tack of a lube is more important than the ingredients used to make it. All my "good" lubes ended up about the same in their "qualities" regardless of what ingredients I used to get there....and after awhile I could almost predict how well a lube would shoot by a simple finger manipulation/smear test. Where I am at.... a lube that you can almost but not quite make "go away" with your fingers seems to shoot good....there were/are exceptions, but it worked enough that it became part of my evaluation steps.
I have a 1gallon can of that Trenton slackwax/jelly if YOU want a small sample to play with....send me your digits again and I will get some sent to you.
I'm sure several of us are already there, knowing what will shoot just by feel. After you test various things for a while you really get a good idea of what is worth trying on a boolit, what needs to go back into the melting pot for more additions, what to add, and when to throw it in the trash (or flux can if it doesn't have soap in it).
It's been mentioned several time on this thread and more recently by Eutectic that what we need is a "substance" that functions as one ingredient, not a series of evolving things through the firing sequence. Having that substance be the same viscosity at all shooting temps may be a bonus, who knows. If it's built right, a lube can have consistent friction qualities being rubbed between shearing lead alloy and steel whether frozen hard or fully melted.
So far I can't figure a single substance that will work for this, it needs to be a blend of a few things that lock together into one, indestructible putty. Even a fully synthesized polymer would have to have a gillion different hydrocarbon strands to cover all the bases.
Gear
What does Lucas use to get their "polymetric film"?
Not really bullet lube related in this case, but I figure one of you guys that are better versed in the chemistry would likely know. I did have some good results mixing their super slick engine assembly lube into several waxes for boolit lube...just to keep it on subject...would not want a wandering thread here at castboolits ya know :lol:
Yes, and...Quote:
Originally Posted by 357maximum
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by geargnasher
There's that putty word again!
MJ
I wish you two would PLEASE not talk about Alox 350! I'm trying hard to 'kick' that habit!
I too, pretty much know by feel what will shoot anymore. I'm a sucker for 'glide' though and get too much oil in at times... but I'm improving....
I'm getting so fast finger lubing boolits I may even sell my Lubrisizers!
Speaking of too much oil.... I lowered oil content in my Polybutene Felix formula. Boy! It feels just right now!
Warm this morning.... Almost feels hot after that 22 day run of below zero mornings! A whooping 19F as I tested. I should plant some banana trees!
But I ran some of the new "less oil" Polybutene Felix through my '.32-20 bench gun'!
I am also testing some new hunting boolits I've made. I saw some center drills a while back that had a pilot drill point, then a larger tapered area, and finally the 60 degree taper normal for a lathe center. It had "3-stage" hollow point written all over it to me!
I tested these 3 stage HP's as well as the new PBF formulation... (no bHN in this particular mix)
I've enclosed pictures of a loaded 3-stage HP round as well as a 'cold start' 70 yard group test. The 4 shots are in a hair over 3/4".
The cold start is slightly left. Note the heavier 'C.O.R.E.' ring around the cold start hole! The three shots after the cold start went into 5/16".
Eutectic
Attachment 60453
Attachment 60454
I have some magnesium stearate, I think, tucked away somewhere. My experience was not satisfactory using it because it created combinations which dropped out of the "lube" as the lube aged on the stove. For example, it took the genuine alox component out of the standard NRA 50-50 tamarack brand. Nothing like tar being glued to the bottom of a stainless steel mixing pot. And, I mean TAR that took trichloro chemicals to clean the pot. I would hate to have that in a gun barrel. ... felix
Polybutene Felix is looking dang good! ... felix
Make two lubes each having the same ingredients with the exception of one containing somewhat more beeswax (perhaps 10-15%) to provide a firmer (but not brittle) texture with more tack. Shoot the two lubes (dyed differently for ID purposes) on the same or following day in 20 round strings with proven loads at reasonable cast velocities. I think you'll find the lube with more beeswax will shoot better.... NOT because of the beeswax ingredient, per se, but because of the lube's attributes.
MJ
MJ,
Stihl chain and bar is what I'm using. The summer grade with Iso 220 base oil.
The 112gr HP chronographs 1790fps at 8 feet. I shoot the solid version (116.5grs) right at 1700fps.
So they are peppy hunting type .32-20 loads that the old Savage Model 23 just loves.
Eutectic