I agree some lube and additves work at different temp ranges most likey same in gun barrel.
drawing and metal forming lube work the same.
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I agree some lube and additves work at different temp ranges most likey same in gun barrel.
drawing and metal forming lube work the same.
it could also be that you finally got the whole barell lubed.
i have seen it take 7-11 shots for a new lube to work it's way down the bbl.
and about the same from a squeaky clean barell to lube showing at the muzzle.
eutetic.
let me see if i have any still kicking about.
i loaned some to my b.i.l. to work some horse leather over and don't know if i got it back or not.
MJ, I read your sentax wrong, the way you wrote it made me think you meant the OOR noses were making the fourth group string vertically but not the rest, sorry.
Lots of lubes fall apart in long strings, that's why I laid out the two groups of ten with a cooling period (I always shoot four targets five times so I can REALLY see what's going on, same as you did here, and you see exactly why). If a lube is going to start purging or shifting the load (HARMONICS) enough to cause stringing or expanding or contracting groups, it will usually show up in 20 rounds without cleaning at a given test temperature. To be fully effective, the lube must be tested like this every ten degrees or so and trends noted, but that's a fine-tune to a formula that has passed a lot of other tests first, like the second round of 20 after a few days sitting dirty.
Gear
I did a little testing of the GY-HTO polymer stuff just melted in with a base oil (don't remember which), and it sure did do differently on my wear tester when hot than cold. I'd say it "passed" the cold test where the mix was almost starting to congeal, but when hot it wetted out and the film strength just seemed to vanish. The "hot" test is about as hot as I can hold briefly, around 140F, the cold test was frozen, somewhere between 0-20F, it warmed some from freezer to shop.
Is that HTO the same EP ester technology being used in some automotive oils in an attempt to replace ZDDP and sulfur?
Gear
littlegirl posted a thread some time back showing the affects of stringing.
we took three different rifles of the same caliber but with different barell lengths.
and a known worked load that showed 150 fps variance using h-322.
we then worked the exact same loads with dryer lint as a filler increasing the velocity.
then showed the stringing loads on target and over the chrono.
and the fillered non stringing loads over the chrono and on target.
most blew it off because the longer barell didn't show a huge velocity increase.
even though i attributed it to gas volume.
i even showed another target [and chrono-data] later shot with oldestgirls 7.7 showing the higher velocity's actually shot lower.
150 fps was plenty to show the vertical stringing quite clearly.
i was even cleaning the barell every 5 shots with a paper patched boolit so that lube purging couldn't be claimed.
this would have been in 2008 or early 09 airc.
150 fps at 100 yards is about what it would take, in a tiny group much less, but still more than the 18 fps ES from the last five shots there. That average being up maybe 30 fps average from the first fifteen makes me wonder what the groups would look like overlaid. MJ, did the last group print about a half-inch lower than the first three? I still think the lube either moved the lube too slowly forward for the temperature, or just got too slick in the end. I like for a lube to settle in within the first three to five shots from a squeaky-clean barrel.
Gear
I'd post the targets but I need to upgrade my scanner software (scanner doesn't work since last OS upgrade) so I'll try to describe group locations.
The center of group two and three is same point vertically from point-of-aim but group three moved 1/2" to the left. Group two spans 3/4" vertically while Group three spans just under 1.25" vertically. The center of group four only moved 1/8" to the left with respect to group three but dropped nearly 1.125". The sad part is, group four spans 2.5" vertically :( while group three spans < 1.25" vertically. The good news from all this mess is that the center of group two shifted only 1/8" both horizontally and vertically with respect to group one AND the center of group one is only 5/8" from the first shot through a cold, extremely clean barrel.
MJ
P.S. I added about 1/2 Tbs T-3 Carnauba tonight to the whole 14 oz. of lube but won't be able to test until next Friday. I want to simmer it at about 225-250F for a few more hours anyway. I'm kinda concerned about this lube's final firmness because my goal was for it to flow easily through a Lyman 450 without being heated.
It's been close to 65 years since I loaded my first reload under close supervision of my father.. And it was with a cast boolit.
With all that time passed, it is fun to do something in the cast boolit game you have never done before. I did that this morning!
Since yesterday I have pondered 'Extreme'. I believe we are missing a component(s), but my mind drifted to what has worked; especially in the cold without a 'hot' sacrifice.
The very first lube I formulated with the Motul ester was a binary ester/beeswax. It did pretty well but got slick... Then my thoughts went to Polybutene Felix.... It failed at 9F degrees. Yet with a 1.5% hBN addition it went on to -10F below and hung as good as any I've tested so far except for gooey fouling as mentioned. But all lubes are nasty foulers at double digit below.....(so far anyway)
With that background working in my head I went onto a new concoction.... And a new experience! I cook my lubes outside so this one was no different.... except it was -5F below zero! What better conception for a cold end 'Extreme' mix I ask you!
The formula was 25% Motul 800 2T off road 2 stroke ester, 75% Beeswax, and then 1.7% hBN added to that and stirred until thick. It is the most beautiful lube I've ever concocted! It is a creamy rose-pink color very much like looking at strawberry ice cream. Nice color is nice color, but will it shoot hot and cold? Ahhh.... That is the $64,000 dollar question!
Eutectic
After a few hours viscosity is just right! The 'feel' like (maybe better than) my other bHN lubes.
I'll put 'Strawberry Ice' to work and see if it's worth its salt!
Eutectic
Eutectic, I think you've made an important discovery with the hBN and might really be on to something there, and it ought to be unaffected by heat as a sole ingredient. The polybutene Felix showed you what the hBN could do, just like Longhorn lube and Simple Lube showed me that we get warm-barrel flyers without something like Vaseline. Process of addition and observation is about the only tool we really have here.
If Strawberry Ice does any good at all, I'm going to beg a small sample and see what Texas can do to it. Might throw some sodium stearate into it if it goes runny too soon. What's the melt point?
Gear
Are both the gun and the ammo left in the cold?
What would happen if the ammo was carried next to the body, then loaded and fired while it was still at body temp. That was my sol'n when I lived in North Idaho. My preferred rifle was a Ballard in .45-110. I carried 2 rounds inside the glove of my left hand.
Jeff Houck
I didn't check the melt point yet.... But it's low.... Maybe
140F? I can live with these temps as I don't let even field ammo get over 100F after a bad experience years ago (not lube related).. For you Gear, on a hot July day you couldn't get it into the truck probably before 100 was exceeded! Some sodium stearate might be very interesting......
I only made 200 grains of it. If it shows some promise I'll make up some more and send you some. One pain, (but not a bad one) is hBN does not go into solution so I've found taking the completed mix off the heat and stirring until I can't stir anymore keeps a homogeneous mix.
I Ed's Red the .35 Rem and shot four foulers into the berm a while ago. You would think Carnauba was in the mix as bright as the bore is! Of course gun and ammo wasn't normalized down to ambient in this case. All physical signs are a go so I'll test some next week. Warming up some to 8 or 10 by mid-week. So hard testing may be later.
Eutectic
I thought it might have low melting point, that's one of the downfalls of Speed Green here, it can't physically handle the heat (like sitting on a shooting bench in August) and it also starts to do the purge/fling thing every few rounds if you don't keep the barrel cool.
Gear
I agree with the 140 melt temp, that is, until an extraordinary ingredient comes along that allows a dried out wet looking condition to prevail during and after storage. However, wet looking and an invalid first shot POI after storage invalidates the lube design. Accuracy trumps looks every time. ... felix
Hi Jeff,
Yes, I am leaving gun and ammunition both out for usually 3 hours in below zero lately. This is strictly for testing purposes of just what our lube formulas can handle.
I am like you out hunting or even shooting away from the house. I use body heat to keep ammo as warm as possible. It is also normal for me to hunt with a single shot (Ruger #1 or Winchester Hi-Wall) so I only load it when I expect action. I keep the gun warm as well as I can. If I call coyotes in bitter cold (-20F below) I'm only good for a half hour or so exposure. I will change calling spots and warm up in the truck both me, gun, and shells, then go out again.
I made the comment on a previous post that I had never shot a gun so cold as in these tests. I don't shoot with face protection as I 'feel' with my cheek for correct let off. My cheek is a little freezer burnt at the moment from 'pulling' it off the stock.
While I can probably never get my loaded rounds as cold as I'm testing it now in real use, or even the gun for that matter, I do want to see if the lube formula can give good performance to a true -15F below outside, both gun, and ammo as well.
I got a nice .44-100 Ballard that was my father's. I need to shoot it! Don't know about hunting with it.... I have a .405 Winchester single shot I want to kill something BIG with first! Maybe a buffalo..
Eutectic
just so you know when i add the moly to my lube i add it to the lube when it is just melted enough to still be solid but in a peanut butter state.
this allows the metal to be mixed in but not fall through the lube.
i am positive that something like hbn or moly will be a final addition to the lube.
okay the neatsfoot was found and put in the freezer for over 4-1/2 hrs it turned a bit cloudy and went thickish. [not to a solid at any time]
however as soon as i touched it with my finger it went liquid and retained it's property's.
it was starting to return to a liquid state in 10 minutes in room temp [65-f].
runfiverun, when you say moly, do you mean moly powder or moly like in NLG2?
dunno what nlg-2 is so moly powder.
the way i get it is in bigger pieces than is used in moly grease or the stuff lyman uses.
i use it for the e/p property's it provides to the lube.
my moly complex lube recipe is listed here somewhere.
it's b-wax,soy wax,white lith,xlox,moly,and parrafin wax for the xlox [that's the 5% it's to the amount of xlox used]
60-40-30-10-15-5 with 3-5% atf added for the winter time.
i have made it with lyman's moly lube also but upped the amount to 20% by volume.
if i used straight powder it's more like 7--8% by volume.
all the numbers are based on the 60-40 volume of the two waxes.
it's slippery stuff keep the amounts low.
Gear
""Is that HTO the same EP ester technology being used in some automotive oils in an attempt to replace ZDDP and sulfur?"'
No boron esters and diferent kinda of esters/polymers are used