still controlling the oils...
keeping them in position to flow when needed.
and what is left behind in the bbl.
hmm the zinc phosphates again....
wonder if a powder is available. and not in oxide form [unless the bhn is like 7-20 which i doubt]
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still controlling the oils...
keeping them in position to flow when needed.
and what is left behind in the bbl.
hmm the zinc phosphates again....
wonder if a powder is available. and not in oxide form [unless the bhn is like 7-20 which i doubt]
I know thatit the past STP was considered a potential problem in lube due to excessive slipperiness. Could it be that in some lubes with lots of soap it balances to lack of slick in the soap?
It seems to me that what has been learned is that sometimes it isn't just aout the ingredients but aout the balance between them.
Polybutene Felix and hBN update.
I have been testing a little as I wait for single digit and even colder weather.
This time of year varmint opportunity can show up around my property but action is usually quick! I thought the ol' 92 .38-40 might be a good candidate to have loaded and handy for action if needed. I had shot the .38-40 a month ago in 24F weather with superb results using Poltbutene Felix (no hBN). It was still dirty. I thought a couple rounds to 'freshen up' the fouling might be appropriate.... So a couple days ago I stuffed two rounds into the old Winchester and set it outside in 28F weather.
The first round a couple of hours later at 50 yards was dead on! The next shot made it an oval boolit hole. I do mean 'dead on' too! I could have head shot sparrows..... Good enough I thought. It is loaded and handy and ready.
My Savage .32-20 seems to like the hBN addition to Polybutene Felix better. Not that the plain PB Felix is bad with groups of 1" to 1 1/4" at 85 yards. I changed the hBN content to 1.5% down from 2% and like the texture of the lube a lot better now. The .32-20 was fouled with the 1.5% hBN formulation a couple days ago but not tried for group or a cold start. I tested it this morning even though it was a warm 38F. Still I left the gun and ammo 'normalize' outside down to ambient.
I loaded my cold start round with a 4.5% powder reduction. I touched it off and the hole was at the bottom of my aiming square at 85 yards which is where the load was hitting. I shot three more slowly and ended up with a 3/4" group at 85 yards which included the cold start!
I've attached a picture of the target. Note there is a small speck of lube at 3 o'clock just outside the aiming square. Felix lubes never fling lube like this for me! And at 85 yards? Upon close inspection the lube speck was more viscous than my lube. The speck was as black as Moly lube (Yuck!) but the black was carbon/powder fouling like you see on a patch pushed through a dirty bore.
I speculate (and could be all wet) that this speck was material purged from the bore (ahead of the boolit) on the 'cold shot'? Notice the right boolit hole has a darker peripheral ring at the edge..... It was the cold start hit.
I don't think this load is purging lube off the fired boolit especially at 85 yards! Now it may be pushin' C.O.R.E. material out in front of it.....
Eutectic
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/IMG_03304.jpg
Interesting you mention the relative residue around the hole. I've studied that quite a bit with all this lube testing, and it does tell you quite a bit about CORE. Looks like you have the cold start thing fixed, even without using the lube to do it. If that speck was black through and through, then I'm sure it was pushed out ahead. Chunks coming out of the grooves, of course will be much more clean.
Gear
Temporarily fixed maybe.... as this is one of my winter 'hunting' guns where first shot placement is of major importance to me. And winter's about here!
Since yesterday's group I have continued to ponder C.O.R.E. and its behavior. C.O.R.E. has many answers for us and the 'cold start' part is an important one!
My thoughts wandered to powder..... Then to coatings on powder like deterrents and such... Coatings have to STICK. by design... What do their residues do when burned down our bore and mix with our lube??
I think it's a given with lubed boolits that residuals are pushed out shot after shot. So what happens to make a 'cold start' flier? I think it may be like a spilled blob of mashed potatoes. If we wipe them up right away they wipe up easy.... If we miss the spot for a week then they need scraped off with MORE WORK. I think C.O.R.E. deposits work like this..... Maybe powder coating residues make a kind of glue? Now if those mashed potatoes fell onto wax paper they would clean up easier maybe??
These are my thoughts on hBN in my lube formulation. What if we can get a uniform friction barrier on the barrel steel? Something under the residue? Something like the waxed paper analogy above..... Something to make residual lube (deposits) 'purge' more uniform hot or COLD!
I think Run is on the trail of this rabbit with his thoughts about ZDDP. Care needs to be taken as too much ZDDP can be a detriment. 30 years ago cam/lifter/valve train wear was a pretty good problem in diesel engines particularly with multi-vis oils. This was maybe my introduction to ZDDP in Chevron's DELO 400 diesel oil I believe. I knew trucking firms that used Delo 400 SAE 30 instead of the multi-vis 15w-40 because of valve train wear... Straight 30 weight in this cold country adds a lot of challenges believe me! But the multi-vis formulation was improved and ZDDP played a part in it.
Single digits in a couple days..... We'll see how Polybutene Felix plus hBN likes it and maybe some competition....
Eutectic
The trees just started turning this week. It's 65 on the shady side of the house right now, which is about as cold as it's been yet. We pay a price for it in the summer, but I like the mild winters, a person can get a lot more done outside.
You just gave me an idea. I have about half a pound of unknown stick powder on hand, I think I'll go burn some of it on a clean piece of steel and study the goo left behind.
Gear
""Care needs to be taken as too much ZDDP can be a detriment:""
ZDDP film build to a certain molecular thickness then stop they do not keep building up as a wax or alox may.
It's my understanding that ZDDP breaks down to release the phosphorus and zinc compounds with heat and shear/pressure, which is how it adds lubricity and why it doesn't accumulate beyond a certain point on surfaces.
I also read that ZDDP combined with some of the super-modern ester molecules that are being developed for EP additives on their own is a dynamite combination for EP qualities, the effect together being greater than the sum of each individually.
This begs a question: Do ZDDP and Polybutene "boost" each other? Seems they're combined in an awful lot of automotive oil additives. What common product would have enough of either (preferably both) to benefit boolit lube in a 25% or less concentration?
Gear
Try a 25 percenter, Ian, and see how close we have an ideal lube. ... felix
I wasn't thinking of ZDDP in excess as to adding molecular thickness or build up and I agree with that part..... There was something else back a while that stated higher concentrations of ZDDP in solution was not good... I can't remember if it was a corrosive problem or with other additives problem..... Maybe Bruce knows? I'll research some and see what I can dig up. Concentrations seem to be at low % but that could just be a "Greeny" in the wood pile!
Gear.... I liked your idea about burning powder! I found a couple of small pieces of 10ga 304 stainless plate... I burned 20 grains of our most used (maybe) boolit powder ol' 2400. I added a drop of mineral oil and mixed a thick mud. (Looked like what was stuck on my target!) I pressed the second plate over the goo and bled excess oil out....
I'll let it set a while and see.... I know the Austenitic SS will not likely 'glue' as well as a piece of 4140..... so if it's stuck good in a couple of weeks it will be something to think about?
Eutectic
Here's a good looking product, it treats in the mid-teens with zinc at 7% concentration. Also supposed to "cling", I wonder if it has any Polybutene in it? Downsides are paraffinic base oil, probably Group I, and very low VI. Oh, and that tiny bit of calcium.
http://barsproducts.com/system/pdfs/...pdf?1347647024
Gear
I just discovered that Bird Proof Repellant is 97% Polybutene, for those of you who were interested in a consumer-grade source.
A caulk tube full if it costs six bucks.
Gear
i haven't seen the super concentrated version around.......[yet]
i use the regular version regularly [ooofff not a pun.]
it doesn't have the sticky of polybutene.
my f.i.l. used to use rislone to thin out motor oil in the winter time [back in the old black and white days] to get the old cars started.
I'm excited about the bird deterrant, I've been looking high and low for an automotive chemical that had enough of the polybutene in it to do some real good and not too much of the low-grade dino oil or calcium-based detergents.
Now I can go back to formulating lube with polybutene added. I know that polybutene isn't all created equal, but I think it's all close enough.
The more I postulate on this, the closer I get to Ben's Red! I really wonder if the Red/tacky grease in lube will hold up to heat like Felix lube will. I'd love to get away from the sodium grease for lots of reasons, but the other lithium greases have consistently let me down without changing formulas between mild temps and extreme heat.
Gear
What are we going to do of Ben turned out to have the right answer all along? Do we give him second golden bullet award? Maybe the golden lube stick award?
Gear PIB's (polybutene) are food grade, clear in color and in varying molecular wts up to Paratac types offer a film strenght improver to oils and a easy way to get very thick "sticky" lubes while reduceing the wear scar on most EP test rigs.
ZDDP and PIB to my knowledge do not offer much in the way of "synergy". Common things that do are S and P like in a gear oil.
The old STP was/is PIB and ZDDP or it was ZDDP and and a cheapo VII like a OCP polymer I forgot which.
ZDDP will could release small amounts acid BUT in a normal grease or engine oil the basic additves will neutrilze that.
A lot of the snake oil additves use Chlor parrifiin with or without ZDDP with a over baseed CA sulfonate to react with any chlor acids formed in the engine.
Sorry got off subject.
Bruce
Gear look at thease i have the H-300 and L-14 most all the time
bruce
http://www.ineosoligomers.com/173-In...oduct_Data.htm
http://www.ineosoligomers.com/28-Characteristics.htm
140 gear oil vis is 16-24 I forgot @ 100C so the H-300 is way thick so much so if barely pours.
30 wt is 9-12
Synergy was the term I was looking for.
Not off subject at all, to me anyway, I looked at chlorinated waxes (like metal forming lubes) a long time ago, but they're getting harder to find and thermally decompose into nasties.
The Paratac most definitely improves the heck out of the "wear scar" on my home-made, "one armed bandit"-style wear tester, putting boolit metal to semi-polished steel intended to mimic typical bore finishes. That, and the fact that it really holds a lube together (cohesive) in a variety of temps while not really adding any real TACK to it (good thing, don't want too much sticky), make it an ideal ingredient.
The trick here is to figure what to do with it exactly. I've been working tonight with just the Paratac and various oils and greases to see what holds up best to the wear tester. All of the PAGs are a bust except for the really heavy one (1000), Lucas synthetic did ok, regular Lucas did better at room temp (I know Lucas doesn't have any additives in it to speak of, just thick oil), Vaseline was HORRID, that stuff is really not working out as a lubricant. Castor oil and some El-Cheapo bar/chain oil worked pretty well. Every #2 grease in the house just failed dismally, confirming my thoughts recently that the only purpose of adding oil to the waxes is a plasticizer and not a lube in and of themselves. It's looking like a wax, probably a micro/macro blend, treated with a high dose of sodium thickener to keep it together in the heat, softened with a very heavy oil, and all treated with PIB is the direction to go. Unless the PIB can make up for the way the lithium grease is so temperature-finicky, I don't see using it. I can test that with some of the brick grease I have, one of them has an ISO bright stock of something like 300 blended with one that's 1600 if I remember right. Might have to try that again.
Gear
i was somewhat concerned with that gear helper i grabbed being high pao and making a crumbly mess of the wax.
i did get the 650 and two more 0-frames into the reloading room today,and the primer feed, case advance,and the case feeder all timed in today too.
i even caught a glimpse of my lube microwave and crock-pot at one point this afternoon.
somebody should have told me i had so many shotshell hulls, i need more primers.
good find on the poly, the zddp is still elusive.
i'd bet it was/is olefinpoly in the stp
it is in the gear booster i have and maybe will get to this year.
I have a Ruger #1 in .405 Win.
Actually it is more like a .450-.400 as I've throated it out and shoot 400gr "J" stuff at 2100fps.
But the choice of .411" "J" words is limited.... So I made a long tapered and hardened sizer to size .416" "J" words down to .4115".....
I got on a kick to size Hornady's 400gr .416" solid down. THIS BECAME MY LUBE FILM STRENGTH TESTER!! This is a tough bullet! I shot it through 65" of dried and stringy Cottonwood.!!
For years I had a quart of old Polybutene from the Standard Oil Co. It was the same product they sold to the Studebaker Corp. to make the original STP. Sadly after 50 years it decomposed and I had to pitch it! So I bought a new jug of STP...It didn't feel the same....
I lubed up a .416" solid with 'new' STP and pushed it through my die.... It strained me and even my old A-2 press. But even worse, it screeched like you ran over your cat's tail with your truck! So I tried some Rooster super case forming lube I had. It put a short glass pack on the screech.....
I ended up using some Chevron 'Ultra-Duty' #1 grease I had. It is red and stringy, has an OK Timken load of 70 lbs. Lithium 12 soap thickener and has polybutene in the formulation. It is like Lucas 'Red and Tacky' or I should say the Lucas product is like Chevron's.....
Those ultra thick jacketed .416" solids pushed through with nary a peep with about half the effort!!! I use 'Ultra-Duty' for all my heavy duty sizing now.... I even made boolit lube out of it and...... didn't like it.
Still though........ I don't really believe 'film strength' EP type stuff is what our boolit lube needs....
Gear states Vasoline fails miserably on his film strength tester. Yet Vasoline has had and still does have one of the best 'accuracy' records going as boolit lube?????
I don't think an EP barrier on our barrel steel is needed but I think an adhesive preventative on barrel steel will be required to make it to 'Extreme'. Time will tell...
I don't like phosphorus..... I don't like what phosphorus does to steel to gain it EP qualities. With that, I'll let you fellas play with ZDDP in boolit lube.... I'll wring out a non'stick under the C.O.R.E. if I can....
Eutectic