Attachment 244333
375x2” and 412x2”.... both are formed from 308 Winchester but could use 30-06, 270, or the more expensive 240 Weatherby to achieve the same basic results.
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Attachment 244333
375x2” and 412x2”.... both are formed from 308 Winchester but could use 30-06, 270, or the more expensive 240 Weatherby to achieve the same basic results.
Im assuming your working on a deer round for states like Ohio that allow straight walled rifle cases....
I did a one of for a member here based on 300 in mag brass tapered down to 40 caliber at the overall allowed case length. No shoulder was left so the belt was headspace. It was an interesting looking round with a 400 grn bullet seated.
Instead of forming a belt on a given case. Start with a belted case and work from there to what you want. 300 win mag is plentiful fairly inexpensive as a parent case. you might be able to get the capacity and performance you want and fit in a short action even.
When working a wildcat up never overlook other avenues or forms of what your thinking. Here a parent belted case may save on expensive dies presses and time. The slightly bogger case dia and shorter powder column may give better efficiency and allow other options.
I like that attitude, "blue sky, what if" has gotten more new stuff invented then the continual nay-sayer's. Good thing there are only a couple of the bah, humbug types on here.Quote:
Originally Posted by beechbum444
And Country Gent is right about 300 Win Mag being plentiful, I've got a bunch that I need to get posted on S&S along with a laundry list of other un-used space taker-uppers. Like several totes worth. If I ever get off my duff I could probably afford a new rifle[smilie=w:
Re: .240 Weatherby- silly proprietary version of the .24-06 IMO. If I had one it would be rebarreled to 25-06 soonest.
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Funny , I was looking at the 300 wm today as a parent case , as far as all the 300 wm sitting around to post I the s and s , shoot me a pm , who knows , I like the 412 x 2 " , custom dies for the belt , I assume ? And it looks like you are a boat guy too ...
The 412x2” is using 308 Winchester brass, drawn in a single pass using a belt forming die from CH4D, and expanded with a very long tapered expander a friend made for me.
270 and 30-06 brass could be used for a longer case, if wanted.
Even more interested ch4d for belt forming dies , 400 gr lead boooolit , where in the world do I start looking for load data and powder combos for this round ....
I doubt you’ll see much load data for either the 375 or 412x2”, which is what I call them. They are wildcats that I’ve been playing with for years as a concept, although the idea has been in the minds of other tinkerers in one form or another (you could use the 30-06 case full length for a standard action rifle, for instance).
My intention is to use the short action Remington 700 for the donor rifle (it’s waiting on the barrel to be ordered now). The Rem 308s and 243s floating around should require no modifications other than possibly altering the forward lips of the mag feed rails.
Look at cases with similar/close diameter and length and make educated guesses, having computer software for estimating loads is never a bad thing here.
The 414 Supermag is 1.590”, so top loads should be a good starting point for the 2.00” case... The 375 Winchester is a little smaller diameter, but the length is similar and should provide another good starting point for the .412” version.
Cast loads for the 38-55 are plentiful, and since it is practically identical dimensionally to the 375 W it should also provide some useful starting points.
The idea with these cartridges was to use a case designed for the modern box magazines in bolt guns, with little/no modifications needed.
My final model of the 412 version can use non-custom dies (shortened) to load, and can be chambered without a custom reamer....’cause I’m cheap.
Hopefully, the gun will be up and running soon... I’m ordering a barrel after getting a few other projects finished.
Wow the 414 pistol round sounds like a good place to start , I've got a 38-55 piece of brass sitting on the shelf , I see it often and it didn't dawn on me . With the oal being close to that of a 762x 39 case blown out to .40 I looked at using it a a parent case too but then it comes sooo close to the 401 wsl
Non custom dies for the 414 x 2 , I'm curious ???? It seems everyone chases velocity but I can't see why no one remembers that a 400 gr lead boolit going 1300 + fps goes thru a 1,000 buffalo from bumper to bumper and has been for over a century
One thing to remember is that drawing the case down to provide the belt reduces internal capacity, so the 412x2” I’m working toward will have less internal capacity than something like a .40 cal built with a standard 308 case... But it would be legal in areas requiring a straight-wall case if 2” long is acceptable.
The smaller capacity should be a more efficient cartridge for moderate velocities and, like you say, moderate velocity with a .412” bullet in 275-400 grain weights is a beast... Stopping a 275-300 grain “plinker” easing along at 1500 fps is no small feat.
The gun “should” be easily downloaded for chasing cans, or loaded up to be suitable for anything I’ll ever encounter.... A well-mannered “thumper”, in a lightweight carbine.
The case “design” was pretty simply coincidental, to be honest.
First, the belt gave the opportunity to get positive headspace with a large diameter projectile, and being a fan of the 458x2” the belted case of the 240 Weatherby was perfect for a bullet in the 40-41 cal range....
Custom reamers and dies aren’t cheap, so after years of hemming around and putting the project aside while the donor rifle sat in a safe I realized that if I used the measurements of the forward 1.780” of the 405 Winchester I actually had a match for the case diameter of the 240 Weatherby above the belt, a total length of 2” (.220” from base to top of belt) and a bullet diameter of .412”.
Having a good selection of 41 cal molds didn’t hurt deciding, either.
So, after drawing the belt with the forming die, sizing the case above the belt can be done with a shortened 405 Winchester die. Seating is also done with a shortened 405 seater die.
Full sizing, belt included, can be done with a regular 240 Weatherby FL die, or even using the original draw die.
Chambering, another cost cut, is going to be possible by using a standard 405 Win reamer to cut the 2” MAX length, then the belt recess can be bored with the lathe... A new 405 reamer is half the cost of a new made-to-spec wildcat, and renting one is 1/3 of that...
I wanted to pursue the “cheap” route intentionally to see if it made sense... I think it does.
Nonte also experimented with soldering on a ring cut from the appropriate internal diameter copper tubing. He cleaned up the result, on a lathe.
I was tinkering with 41 R.E.M. Mag dies a few days ago and also a fan of the 458x 2 cartridge then I came across the 45 raptor but it seems that making it from 308, 3006 270 brass etc is problematic ... but for the past 8 months I've been chasing exactly what u discovered ... even the 400 whelen and 411 hawk but I also wanted to shoot cast boolits so the case either needed a belt or a rim ... hence my question in the start of this conversation . I'd really like to keep the .473 rim diameter and use a 35 R.E.M. Bolt .460 that I have for a 336 marlin if I could keep pressure under 40,000 psi even at 60,000 it could possible be stuffed into a ar 10 platform but I'm a lever gun fan, yes the 444 marlin and 4570 are great but there's some calling me toward a 411-412 wild cat . You are correct about the molds ... can't believe I over looked the 405 win that case is literally sitting next to my 38/55 round and 444 rounds .... if larger boolits would have beeen around when marlin came out with the 444 , it would have been the 414 marlin .....
Raptor brass is available at Starline, but free cases are always nice.... and “cheap”, if you don’t don’t worry about the time needed to make them.
I expect the 412x2” to be pure fun, with a serious “thump potential” if desired. It will never be a match for the 444 Marlin, but it was never intended to be.
If the rifle/cartridge combo is half what I expect it to be it will move way up near top of the “Fun Gun” list here.
I expect the cartridge to be small enough to play with economically, yet big enough to take on serious field work if wanted... And should be a caster’s delight.
The carbine bolt-action I’m planning to end up with has attributes I’ve always wanted, but never found.... Hopefully, I’ve done my homework as well as I think I have... Time will tell.
The 444 marlin is great but I think you are thinking what I'm thinking, I'm not chasing a240 grain boolits at 2100 for , I'm looking for a 300 - 400 grainer going 1300 -1500 .... I was just looking at 405 win in the book ... case design , taper is right but I can't wrap my head around the 2.0 case length and keeping a pressure below 50,000 psi . A 30-06 case and 405 win case are sooooo close 2.5 ish without going into decimals on both sides .... 2.0 case length .... don't get me wrong ...I want it toooo... as we shorten the case we shorten the distance between bottom of boolits and top of powder charge and in theory increase pressure ....from outside window seems 30-06 blown out would be a rim less 405 win ..... when can I get a barrel with savage threads ????
A rimless 405 win , why didnt they do this when chasing the 400 whelen ....
The idea is not to keep the capacity or length of the ‘06 or 405W, but rather to have a case suitable for short actions with less case capacity... A milder round that would run moderate velocities more efficiently with less powder, using medium-large diameter bullets with better sectional density than similar weights in 44 or 458 options.
Think 458x2”, miniaturized.
My intention is to mainly run 250-300 grain bullets in the mid-teens for plinking, higher-teens for “Thump”.
.412” bullets in that range are sledgehammers that don’t beed a lot of velocity, and recoil should be easily managed loaded down for plinking at cans all day.
Barrels... it seeems anything that will handle a .412 boolit is non existent ... the .400 .45 .... etc are common ..... where to look .... it would be a 414 super mag on massive steroids
Actually, most barrel manufacturers offer .412” barrels since the 405 Winchester has returned (mostly due to CAS demand). Douglas, Shilen, and PacNor all offer threaded and contoured barrels for common bolt actions, and .412” is one of their options.
I doubt many .412” are ordered for bolts, but I’ll be ordering one non-chambered when work and other projects are a little less hectic.
For any specialty oddballs there’s always rebore options. A good rebore can offer practically any diameter (with a barrel having sufficient OD), twist rate, number and depth of grooves to suit any need. Many are capable of chambering most common wildcats, like 375-308 or 400 Whelen.