It takes skill to shoot 1 mile. A good spotter as well.
It takes skill to shoot 1 mile. A good spotter as well.
Jonas302,
Since you admit you never fired LONG RANGE, I understand your comment. LOL. I did long range and know the problems of long range hits, that are beyond your understanding. I ask you one question: When did any of those LONG RANGERS do it TWICE?? Answer: Because the terrain and situation always change. Are you Military or former Military?
Are you merely a computer keyboard critic? I "Know how good you are" when it comes to long range? Keep typing, since it is easier than HITTING at Long Range! Be well.
Adam
Luck ? Do you know anything about any of the men in the OP of this thread ? That is not luck. That is skill, training and execution. Anyone can get lucky once. Perhaps even twice. Look into the career of Carlos. THAT is not luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Helmer
Chance favors the prepared mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Helmer
The following is somewhat anal application of the English language and it's common misuse, but; I would argue that it was not "Luck" in these cases; rather it was "Controlled Probability". All of the mentioned marksmen (inclusive of Spotters) were disciplined professionals who learned and applied all of the proven techniques of their craft, they trained and practiced intently, and they had God given abilities in this area that exceeded that most of us received. These long range engagements were successful not through Luck/Chance, but application of tremendous skill coupled with the knowledge that the laws of probability would kick in. Given "X" number of shots, with the best equipment and skill, the Bell curve/six sigma evaluation would indicate a % probability of a hit on the Target at these extreme ranges.
I would agree that expectation of "One Shot - One Kill" at those ranges is unrealistic, except if one is using artillery with sufficient size explosive yield.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Expanman
You can read about Carlos' scoped M2 as well as his sniper duel with the NVA's top sniper in this book:
Henderson, Charles (2001). Marine Sniper: 93 Confirmed Kills (2001 ed.). Berkley Books. ISBN 978-0-425-18165-2. - Total pages: 315
I loaned out this book and never got it back, it's that good....
I'm glad you guys responded because the response I typed earlier was very sarcastic so I deleted it. You guys at least we're sincere in your response.
+1 AdamQuote:
Originally Posted by Adam Helmer
I'll look for a copy. Thanks for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by UBER7MM
If I have to shoot something that far there will be a truck involved.
Say what you will but they saved many lives with their skill. I'm glad they were on our side.
Super Long Range Shooters,
ALL the folks chatting about Long Range Rifle Marksmanship SKILL, please let me advise you about GRAVITY! ALL bullets fall 16 feet per second, per second. So ALL you MILERS+ "Skilled" Riflemen must HOLD OVER and compensate for 18, 25 or 38 FEET of bullet drop to SCORE a hit BEYOND a MILE! Now just how "Big" is a man when you got to Hold Over 25 feet???
It IS FAR easier on your computer keyboard than behind a rifle scope..... Try it, and SEE!
Adam
I pulled this post once, but I've decided to put it back.
I don't understand what you're driving at.
No one posting in this thread is claiming to have shot at these distances, except it would seem, yourself.
No one is attempting to marginalize the accomplishments of any of the men in the OP, except it would seem, yourself.
No one is trying to define 'luck' or 'skill' the same, except it would seem, yourself.
No one is yelling (CAPS LOCK ON) in this thread, except it would seem, yourself.
If you feel you have been slighted in some way, I'm having a hard time understanding how or why based on what you've posted so far.
As nothing constructive can come from such a discussion, I bid you all a good day!
Chill pill bud,,,,,,,sheesh,,,,,
Gunny Hathcock knew the range precisely and had already ranged the M2 there. He was awaiting a target at that area when the schmuck came along pushing the bicycle. He elaborated about that shot a little bit in our class with him at Quantico in '74. He was using the Unertl scope off his Remington and had the trigger lightened a little and set to fire one shot. In the day, the 50 BMG was the only cartridge capable of that range with any accuracy. It fired a 750gr BT bullet with superior ballistic capability (other than small arms bullets). The Gunny was also an excellent reader of wind. Anyone who knows long range shooting knows that to be that good, you have sell your soul to the devil. The Gunny was a master mirage reader.
Semper Fi
"Controlled Probability" that's a great term. That means to me, that there is a dang good chance I will hit where I intend to hit, if all is left up to me. That is, no interference from wind, rain, or other outside influence.
I have not shot a mile, or a thousand yards, or even 500 yards, but I can tell you that if you know your gun and your distances, and your handloads, you can DO IT! Without "walking the boolit" to the target.
I have a 1970s made M77 in .308 that I have lapped, steel bedded, fireformed, all the stuff you do to squeeze out every bit of accuracy you can, it will shoot a 3 shot group at 200yds that I can cover with a guitar pick, anytime you want it to.
One instance in particular, I was sitting in my vehicle, taking a break from deer hunting, overlooking an alfalfa field, when a turkey walked out into the middle of the field and started pecking and scratching. I got around on him and got all steadied up, knees up and braced, got where I could hold the crosshairs on him pretty good, even with my heartbeat. I started figuring distance. I figured he was 350yds from me. Scope zeroed at 200, halfway down the crosshair was 250, the "point of the arrow" at the bottom where the skinny part met the beginning of the wide part was 300, and I guessed the "shoulder of the arrow" where the reticle got to it's widest, was about 350 yards. I chose this as my elevation. With this held on the turkey, my crosshairs were up in the treeline at the end of the field, and this was with me shooting slightly downward. About every 5th time that bird would stick his head up, he would stand and stretch all the way vertical, and do a long slow look around, then go back to pecking and scratching. I thought to myself, I need that bird FACING ME when he does that! As I held the crosshairs on him, just off to the side so I could still see him, and watched. Just as soon as I got settled in, he faced me, stood up tall and straight, and froze there just long enough for me to finish setting up the shot.
The fat part of the crosshair totally covered the turkey as I swung the crosshairs onto him, all I could see when the shot broke was his "shoulders" or his wings, and part of his beak sticking out sideways. I fired, kept my eye on the scope, saw one single feather floating back to the ground, he tried once to flap his wings, then nothing.
I got out and walked it off, 340yds best I could count, I had aimed 1" below his beard, hoping to put the shot through the triangular neck pocket. The shot hit him 1 1/4" below the beard, and 3/8" inch off dead center. I had hit my target within 1/2" of point of aim. I already knew my bullet drop. I already had done the math. This shot was luck too I guess, even though I had already done all the figuring and compensating necessary to pull it off. This rifle, with it's 1/8 or 1/4 MOA groups would roll groundhogs at 280 yards, so I guess that was luck too.
If *I* who are NOT a sniper, can do this at 350 yards, what makes you think a trained, PRACTICED sniper has to rely on LUCK to do it at a mile? You who are saying these shots are luck, are just not trained and experienced like these guys are.
Friend and coworker told me a pretty good story once. He was a Special Forces medic Vietnam. When on the boarder with Laos. One of the men swam the river at night. Used a white marker to draw an X on a tree that stood behind a well used NVA trail. Swam back across the river. This was a big river btw. He ranged in on that X. Set up the coax mounted M8 0.50 cal spotting rifle on the 105mm recoilless rifle. The gun usually shot a marker round That simulated the trajectory of the 105mm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M40_recoilless_rifle
Anyway this guy had that thing tuned up. Lined it up with that chalked X then waited for an NVA to come along packing down the Ho Chi Min trail. Took the mans head about off. His comrades were to afraid to go into the open to retrieve his body. So that night the SF soldier swam back over and replaced his victims head with a melon. Next morning the body was gone. VC didn't use that trail along the river for a couple months then the SF left. We were not supposed to be firing across the river into the other nation. At that time.
Now after telling this story. I feel compelled to send out my condolences. To the families of the idiots who issued the no engagement order. And may LBJ rot in hell.
Disclaimer:
First heard this story thirty or so years ago. I recollect it to the best of my memory.
when i was 18 or 19 in the army we would shoot 500 meters with the m16(223 rem) and the m60(308 win) at 1000 meters. i didn't think about it at the time, it was something we did. the m60 , even tho it was fully automatic, it was taught to say really fast... 1/ 3/ 9. thats 9 shots out of the barrel on the way to the target 1000 meters away.
now 20+ years later, with a stroke, i shoot mostly single actions under 200-300 yards. i've been thinking of getting the tc encore with its 22-250ai out and start shooting 500-600 yards. i know its a hard thing to do, but with time, i'm pretty sure i can do it.
but those hero's deserve credit. everytime they killed one of theirs, they saved many more of ours.
p.s.
carlos hathcock is my personnal favorite!!!
Never heard any LR sniper claim a super long range shot was "repeatable". They IMI were all lucky shots and never claimed to be anything else.
Story I told was within range and repeatable. Our enemy thought we were out of range of our political agreements. Similar to what's going on right now with Iran. That's the point I was trying to make. Blurred I guess. Kerry heading up negotiations with Iran. Can't make up that ****.
In case any subjugated morons aint figured it out.
That was a true story of an American soldier who would take an enemies head rather than listen to LBJ and his BS.
There are people in this world who should be afraid of the dark. It's not people like me.
It takes a hell of a lot more than just luck to hit a target over a mile and a half away. Even with multiple shots it takes a LOT of skill on both the shooter's and the spotter's part. To suggest anything less is frankly an insult to their accomplishments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Helmer