The Ideal 357 Magnum Self Defense Round?

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Originally Posted by Char-Gar

Over penetration is no joke. Nobody wants to survive a bad guy and then go broke in court when the innocent bystander takes you to the cleaners, which they will do.

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Soooo. . .#9 snakeshot then? :kidding:

I dunno. . .if you're worried about exits more than effective performance, I've kinda always felt that carrying may not be for you. The "what if this other guy kills me" is a much higher priority than the "what if there's somebody behind him?", the "what if the round still has some juice left when it's finished?", and the "Oh crud! I survived and ended up in court" There is some heat in that there self defense kitchen, and there is no asbestos suit to guard against all of it. Certainly, .357 is probably not the round of choice for the penetrationally timid in any event.

I've always leaned heavy toward the 145gr. Silvertip for that round. Probably a fair choice for a "one-bullet-for-all-cirumstances"

10 years ago on a Federal contract deal I dealt with the required weapon was a fixed sight 4" heavy barrel .38 and the ammo was Remington +P 110 grain HP. The rationale for the latter was some FBI study that said it was good to prevent over penetration. The contracted guards were to be used in Social Security Offices and Federal district court rooms. To the best of my knowledge a round was not fired in response to a threat during the 5-year contract so I have no report as to the round's effectiveness. A humorous side note is the contract was held up for a couple months because the first issued request for contract proposals called for the above handgun and 180 grain .40 S&W ammo. Bureaucrats, got to love them. GF

I carry 158 xtp’s in my 3”sp101 another option would be a 358156 hollowpoint in 38 special case with 13grs. 2400 crimped in the lower crimp groove it worked for Skeeter and it shoots good in my guns. But i mostly use 200gr xtp’s in 45 auto cases running out of the gun around 950fps, dont know how they work on 2 legged varmints but they kill deer like lightning if you put them in the right place, probably less chance of over penetration also,if you dont have a 45 its a good excuse to get one!

I am going to give you an option for "urban carry". One thing to keep in mind is a revolver is easy to reload and change ammo. If you carry a speed loader full of "bear loads" you can handle anything not expected.

With that said, look at the old 38 Spacial FBI loads. A soft lead 158 grain hollow point moving at 900-950 fps. Keep in mind that load data is for long barrels and not a snubby. It seems that 900 is a magic number for HP expansion. So to get the velocity of a 7" 38 Special out of a 2" snubbie you will need to load to a +P or even a light 357 load.

When going up from 38+P load data the grains "jump" to fill a 357 case for a given powder. You will just have to look at your powder data and select a charge to start with. You can see it if you list the load data for a bullet going from 38, 38+P, to 357 load data.

The soft lead 158 grain bullet will expand and deliver all of its energy if it stays in the target. A blown out 4" exit hole from a 357 Magnum is devastating. But so is the bullet when it hits another target.

A lot of people get worried about getting two holes per shot. If you think about you standard bad guy silhouette target you are shooting straight at the target. This is in contrast to a Deer shot "broadsides" thru one side, two lungs, and out the other side. So if you puncture a lung you have eliminated its function. The exit/second hole does less critical damage. Think of your handgun bullets as a rapier making holes and not a brick with knock down & explosive tissue ability.

Here is a target ready soft lead 158gr:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/25...int-box-of-500

To keep it simple, look at Hodgdon HP-38 LSWC powder data:
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
HP-38 is an olde powder designed for the 38 Special case & Bullseye shooting.

Using a 357 Magnum Case a 10" barrel produced a max of 1109 fps.
If you loose 25fps for each of the 8" you loose 200fps and get about 900 fps.

If you switch to Universal Powder you get 1250 out of that 10" test barrel.
So a you can get your 900-950 with this powder much easier.

You can look at all the manufactures and find similar examples.

These are also inexpensive components... so you can become very proficient.

I used to carry a 357 until hearing a case while sitting on a grand jury. The defendant shot a man in self defense. Without revealing much detail about the incident. The prosecutor told us he was cleared and it was justifiable. The problem was the bullet going through the bad guy striking a woman that was not in any way involved. The justifiable shooter was charged with a serious assault felony for hitting the woman. The only details about the woman was surgery and an overnight hospital stay. I was the first juror to ask a question "what kind of gun" cop got 357 out of his mouth. The prosecutor interrupted telling cop "don't answer that question". I then got a lecture from the 300lb+ female prosecutor. "This is not CSI, you are jurors" then on and on about we are only to decide based on the evidence presented. Despite mine and one other juror's no vote the indictment went forward.

That night I removed the 357's and loaded 38's in my revolver. Now days I carry a 9MM loaded with Silvertips worrying about over penetration.

As expected, this thread produced a lot responses and we're not done yet.

From the old revolver days of LE, we got a pretty large body of data based on actual shootings. All handguns are poor choices for self-defense when compared to long guns but long guns are not practical all of the time. Of the handguns that are available, the 4" .357 magnum is no joke. It is one of the most effective handgun rounds when it comes to self-defense.

The .357 mag round that achieved the best street results back in the 1970's and 1980's was the 125 grain, semi-jacketed, semi-wadcutter, hollowpoint. Various manufactures produced versions of the round but the classic was probably the Federal 357B
Attachment 223696

Many large metropolitan police departments used the 125 gr round and reported excellent results. One mid-western city PD reported nearly 100% success in stopping bad guys with that round and that included a lot off-duty shootings with short barreled revolvers. The track record of the .357 mag 125gr, HP is one of the best of all of the handgun rounds.

Normally with a 38 Special I want to be right in that 150-160 grain range but the .357 mag velocities are so much greater that you can drop the bullet weight to 125 grains and still get all of the penetration you want. The 158 grain slugs fired at .357 mag velocities are going to penetrate excessively even with soft lead and big hollowpoints.

HOWEVER, I'm with Car-gar in terms of home defense. I wouldn't want to shoot that magnum round in a confined space, like my house. I do not like handguns for home defense. There's no need for a small concealable weapon in your home; just use a shotgun. If I was going to rely on a 4" DA revolver for home defense, I'd probably go with a 38 Special +P 158grain LSWC [aka - The FBI Load].

CorBon's Glaser Safety Slug is my choice for carry ammunition in warm weather or indoors. Cold weather: Federal HydroShock. The Glaser is a pre-fragmented projectile that will not over penetrate. "Blue" uses #12 shot compressed as a core. "Silver" uses #6 shot. Pricey ammo. https://shopcorbon.com/index.php?rou...product_id=417

for urban carry, mild preferred over wild, 125g hi-tec over 5g of w231 for me. easy on everything but its target.

Attachment 223699

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey

CorBon's Glaser Safety Slug is my choice for carry ammunition in warm weather or indoors. Cold weather: Federal HydroShock. The Glaser is a pre-fragmented projectile that will not over penetrate. "Blue" uses #12 shot compressed as a core. "Silver" uses #6 shot. Pricey ammo. https://shopcorbon.com/index.php?rou...product_id=417

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Although the bullet is different, I suspect the current 125 grain Federal Hydroshock .357 is very close to the old Federal 357B load.
Some things never change.

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Originally Posted by Beagle333

You are definitely going to have do all you can to pick your shot. You don't know what the bad guy will be wearing or how heavy he is or how much of him is muscle or how far away he will be or how many bones you'll hit, nor if they are at skin level or deep within the meat. So there's no magic boolit that will penetrate effectively and never come out the other side. You just have to get one that will punch through his clothes and into him and do your best to make sure the backstop is clear. Try not to take shots in a movie theater or while in line at the grocery store if you can help it, but I'd rather have a lengthy court battle than be dead. While I haven't had to shoot anybody, I do expect it will be in a more private setting when they come for me personally.

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When those stinkin lawyers are done with you you'll wish you were dead...what's the difference?

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Originally Posted by OS OK

When those stinkin lawyers are done with you you'll wish you were dead...what's the difference?

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The difference is you must be alive in order to be able to wish you were dead.

To answer a few questions, the gun if for predators of the two legged variety, and it will be carried everywhere from the woods to a college campus. My gun is a 3" Ruger SP101.

I did a little research and found this gem. https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...llistics-test/

The FBI standard for penetration is 12"-18"

125gr Gold dot at 1200 FPS (2"barrel) penetrated on average 29.5" Expansion was not great.

https://cdn-secure.luckygunner.com/m...rGD-2in-01.jpg

125gr Gold Dot at 1427 FPS (4" barrel) penetrated on average 19.3". Expansion was great.

https://cdn-secure.luckygunner.com/m...rGD-4in-01.jpg

The 135gr Gold Dots actually looks better. They were trucking along at 1069 FPS and 1184 FPS for a 2" and 4" barrel. Expansion was similar on both. The 1069 FPS load penetrated 13" while the 1184 FPS load penetrated 15.6". As far as the FBI standard goes, that's right in the sweet spot. In fact, a lot of other loads hit right around this sweet spot. It seems like the issue with the 125gr gold dots was that they needed a lot of speed to work right, and they're not getting that speed in a 2" revolver. The 135gr doesn't seem to have that issue as they expand fully at lower velocities.

https://cdn-secure.luckygunner.com/m...DSB-2in-01.jpg

The Remington Semi Jacketed bullets also seems to be a good choice, and is certainly a proven one too. It's been around for quite some time. The 125gr version would certainly work. The round out of a 2" barrel gets 1209 FPS and penetrates 10.5".

https://cdn-secure.luckygunner.com/m...UMC-2in-01.jpg

Out of a 4" barrel, it's smoking at 1473 FPS, and penetrates 13.6". It should be noted though that the round did lose more than 20% of it's weight.

https://cdn-secure.luckygunner.com/m...UMC-4in-01.jpg

The 158gr version of the Remington SJHP looks promising if you keep the velocity down a bit. It's getting 1115 FPS and 14.2" of penetration out of a 2" barrel, and 1287 FPS and 19.9" of penetration out of a 4" barrel. It does not have a issue with shedding weight. A load giving around 1200 FPS or less would probably be ideal.

https://cdn-secure.luckygunner.com/m...Rem-2in-01.jpg

The nice thing about them is that they're cheap and available. They're $5 or $6 less per 100 than most other hollow points, and the 135gr Gold Dots appear to be unavailable right now. Midway USA, Midsouth Shooters Supply, and Grafs were all out, and back order wasn't available.

For the sake of comparison, Here's the results for some other calibers. https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...llistic-tests/

124gr 9mm penetrates around 18"-20" and 230gr 45 ACP penetrates around 14.5"-18". Certain loads in both can over penetrate and even .380 can over penetrate. Most of it's loads either barely made it to the FBI standard, or were just under it, but a few blew right past it into the 20" range.

After reading these results, I don't have much faith in the over-penetration argument. All of these rounds are fully capable of over penetrating. With the right bullet at the right speed, I don't believe it would be an issue. At lease not any more so than any other common self defense round.

Based on cattle water trough tests of mine, I liked the Hornady Critical Defense the best.

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Perfectly mushroomed bullets may sell ammunition but 40 years worth of empirical data derived from actual street shootings seems like a better yardstick to me. And, I've never been attacked by a block of gelatin. You are free to use whatever data you like.

You should call the FBI and offer your services as their ballistics expert. Tell them their testing protocols are flawed and worthless. Seriously, unless we revert to testing on goats, ballistic gelatin offers a unform testing medium along with the barrier tests. I think wet newspaper to be a good test medium, but who reads newspapers any more???

Some observations from a man in a country where firearms are prohibited to ordinary people for self defence.

When talking about defending yourself you can always up the ante on the size of the villain. You can end up wanting a .50 cal machine gun firing armour piercing bullets and laying land mines in the hallway and by the back doors and still find a reason to have more.

What is the main risk you are likely to face? I read an interesting article on handgun stopping power a while back. Rather than talking about terminal ballistics it spoke in terms of "did the gun stop the attack?". Statistics were taken from incidents reported. The overall conclusion is that shooting back with almost anything will mostly stop attacks. Scumbags don't like to be shot at, it gives them the impression that they are not in charge.

My vote goes for a shotgun in the home, loaded with probably lightish shot. At close range it will still cut a perpetrator near in half. At any range inside a home it will hit and do serious enough damage to put just about anyone off their plans, not to mention deafening everyone in the room. Outside the home, I would favour a revolver with a fairly lightweight round, possibly a .22 Magnum shooting sort point ammo. Again, that will do a lot of damage, won't be too loud and disorienting for the shooter, and remember, you aren't limited to one round. Revolvers rarely jam whereas semi autos do, and if competitions I have engaged in are anything to judge by, only when you really don't want them to.

How'm I doin'?

Spot on, UKshooter. The shotgun is first choice no matter the varmint. Most rooms in our house feature one(at least).

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You can be as flippant as you wish but back in the days of LE revolver and before the 1986 Miami Shootout that resulted in the creation of those FBI ballistic standards; actual results were the primary standard to evaluate a cartridge used for self-defense.
While I don't think the FBI terminal ballistic standards are necessarily bad, I do think they should only be a part of the evaluation rather than the sole basis for evaluation.

If someone is trying to do serious harm to you, I can assure you that stopping that person is far more important to you than producing beautifully consistent mushroomed bullets.
Somewhere along the line ammunition manufactures realized that consumers have been conditioned to think that perfectly mushroomed spent projectiles are a sign of quality.
Factors such as penetration, frontal area and weight retention ARE important but the only real test is - "does the bullet do enough damage to incapacitate the attacker before he/she harms me".
Pictures of perfectly mushroomed bullets are A sign of potential performance but actual results are the other important half of that evaluation.

I'm not going to go back and forth about this bullet or that bullet. Cartridge wars are pointless. I will stand by what I said earlier: back when revolvers were common in American law enforcement, departments than allowed the use of the .357 magnum saw excellent actual results from the 125 grain, JHP in .357 magnum.
Just because something is old, doesn't mean it is bad or outdated.

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Originally Posted by UKShootist

Some observations from a man in a country where firearms are prohibited to ordinary people for self defence.

When talking about defending yourself you can always up the ante on the size of the villain. You can end up wanting a .50 cal machine gun firing armour piercing bullets and laying land mines in the hallway and by the back doors and still find a reason to have more.

What is the main risk you are likely to face? I read an interesting article on handgun stopping power a while back. Rather than talking about terminal ballistics it spoke in terms of "did the gun stop the attack?". Statistics were taken from incidents reported. The overall conclusion is that shooting back with almost anything will mostly stop attacks. Scumbags don't like to be shot at, it gives them the impression that they are not in charge.

My vote goes for a shotgun in the home, loaded with probably lightish shot. At close range it will still cut a perpetrator near in half. At any range inside a home it will hit and do serious enough damage to put just about anyone off their plans, not to mention deafening everyone in the room. Outside the home, I would favour a revolver with a fairly lightweight round, possibly a .22 Magnum shooting sort point ammo. Again, that will do a lot of damage, won't be too loud and disorienting for the shooter, and remember, you aren't limited to one round. Revolvers rarely jam whereas semi autos do, and if competitions I have engaged in are anything to judge by, only when you really don't want them to.

How'm I doin'?

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your somewhat ok, except the "lightish" shot doesnt really cut it. ive shot enough small animals with 7.5, and 8 shot to know firsthand it doesnt kill very well.

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Originally Posted by lefty o

your somewhat ok, except the "lightish" shot doesnt really cut it. ive shot enough small animals with 7.5, and 8 shot to know firsthand it doesnt kill very well.

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I always get a kick out of the whole over penetration thing with walls. Anything that has the ability to stop a person, will go through drywall. Even #8 will go through a wall and could seriously hurt or kill a person on the other side. I wouldn't advise FMJ rifle ammo in a city apartment, but most buckshot sizes are a good choice.

As for bullet over penetration for a carry gun. I've gone back and forth on that issue, and I just don't know. Again, anything that will stop a person right now is going through both sides of a person. What's the fastest way to stop an attacker? A CNS hit. I definitely don't want bullets to stop inside a person, I want them going through the spine if possible. A much more real threat to me is the 4 legged variety. Deer attack way more people than anything, at least where I live, as well as dogs, and I'm often in bear territory. If I were to carry a 357 mag, I would use a 170 grain SWC cast semi-soft or a 158 grain soft point.