Today's chronograph session - 357 Mag and 38 Spl +P (with Power Pistol)

Enjoyed another great morning at the range with my friends. Here is additional chronograph data which I would like to share with you folks:

Firearm - Ruger 4 5/8” Blackhawk

A. 357 Magnum
Lyman 358477
6.0 grs Unique
CCI 500 primer
1.525” OAL (Lyman latest data actually lists 1.510” while a 1973 manual lists 1.550”)
MV string per shot (10 shots recorded):
1,025 fps
1,018 fps
1,023 fps
1,033 fps
1,006 fps
1,023 fps
1,015 fps
1,017 fps
1,028 fps
1,031 fps
ES 27! Tight for Unique!

B. 357 Magnum 158 gr cast SWC 12 BNH (crimped in crimping groove)
13.5 grs Alliant 2400
CCI 500 Primer
MV string per shot (8 shots recorded)
1,275 fps
1,269 fps
1,244 fps
1,233 fps
1,244 fps
1,245 fps
1,268 fps
1,275 fps
ES 42! Yes, that’s right!!! …at this amount (13.5 grs) 2400 starts to behave nicely

C. 38 Special +P 158 gr cast SWC 12 BNH
6.0 grs Power Pistol
CCI 500 primer
1.440” OAL
MV string per shot (9 shots recorded):
1,024 fps
1,018 fps
1,016 fps
1,026 fps
1,019 fps
1,002 fps
1,013 fps
1,020 fps
1,036 fps
ES 34 (these were mixed cases, Power Pistol is my favorite in 38 Spl +P, beats the heck out of Rem/Win/Fed FBI loads. It does have a fun factor bark to it! BTW…5.6 grs of Power Pistol using 158 gr LSWC and 38 Spl +P Starline cases averaged 949 fps during a Nov 2019 outing)

Best to all

Eric

Looks like you had a good day at the range.

Yes Sir!

Great data, Thanks for posting
Tony

Thank you for sharing your results. 13.5 of 2400 is the go to load here for all things .357.

Why bother chronograph testing. Especially loads that have been tested for decades and pistol loads in particular.

For the vast majority of shooters, the chronograph is a "toy" and not a "tool".

This thread proves it. The OP presents data with no conclusion. What did he (or we) learn from this work?

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook shows the 358477 with 5.5 gr of Unique at 1130 fps in an 8 3/8" barrel and 1460 with 8.0 gr. With the extra .5 gr the "book value" should be about (.5/2.5 x (1460-1130)) or 45 faster for 1175.
OP got about 1025 out of a 4 5/8" barrel with 6.0 gr.
Using 35 fps/in loss, a four inch shorter barrel should yield 140 fps less than 1175 or 1035. Seems like 1035 is close enough to 1025... for me anyway.

The same handbook shows the 158 gr bullet at 1130 with 10 gr of 2400 and 1540 with 15 gr. Using simple math, 13.5 gr should deliver about 1400 fps out of the 8 5/8 barrel. The OP got 1260. 1400 less 140 (for shorter barrel) yields 1260. Seems the same to me.

Lastly, the .38+p with 158 with Power Pistol. The Alliant site shows 1037 for 6.0 gr with a 6" barrel. Factor in velocity drop of (35 x 1.5) 50 fps with a 1.5" shorter barrel and we get about 990 fps. OP got about 1015 this test but got 950 in 2019 tests. Is that an average of about 980/985? Seems close to 990

Using simple math, I get within 25 fps of published load data for the three loads tested without wasting time and components. But here is the important question. Even if the calculated velocity was off by 50 fps, would it matter?

And the answer is NO!!!

Thus my conclusion that using a chronograph is a waste of time for 99% of pistol shooters. (Or some percentage close to that). What they do with the results is beyond my understanding.

I will go further. It is a waste of time/resources for 98% of cast bullet rifle shooters. Crap groups in cast rifles are the result of many other factors than a 50 fps round to round variation in velocity.

And the finial blasphemy....it is a waste of time/resources for 95% of jacketed rifle shooters unless engaging targets at over 400 yards. Tighter control of ES and SD is not important until dealing will long range. A spread of 100 fps is large, but at 400 yards, using a .30 cal 165 gr HPBT hunting bullet the POI difference between a bullet with a MV of 2700 fps and 2600 fps is 3".

My conclusions came in my journey working up a load for the .223's using cheap 55 gr Spitzers. My max range ethical range is 300 yards. When sighted in at 200 yards my drop at 300 yards would be 8" at 3000 fps and 8.6" at 2900 fps. Would a 50 fps ES be better than a 25 ES...not in practical terms. If I want to increase hits at 300 yards, I better learn to judge wind instead of developing a 25 fps ES load.

IMO much of the chronograph trend is pushed by gun rags selling crap. ES and SD are important to long range shooters shooting over 400 yards. Not many folks are doing that.

BTW, I bought one of the damn things for working up loads and have never used it. Sits NIB. I "drank the Kool-Aid" too. If the load shoots into a tiny group, it works for me. KISS.

I am a dinosaur. Been shooting for over 50 years but have never had the need to shoot at anything farther than 300 yards. I do not know what I am missing by not being a "precision shooter" but I don't miss often. A man needs to know his limitations. If I miss, it will not be because one cartridge is 50 fps slower than the next one.

Folks shooting varmints at 400 yards and deer at 600 yards are in a different class. Working up a load for them requires more uniformity than a hillbilly needs.

One last comment. What made me question the ES/SD criteria was reading tests in gun rags. Many times the loads with the best "numbers" were not the most accurate. I suspect that shooting at 100 yards made the effect of ES/SD negligible, and/or barrel harmonics played into that, and/or maybe they needed to shoot more groups to discern the difference. But it was interesting.

I for one am always glad to see chrony readings and pressure values on handgun loads. Things change over time and no data is wasted. Meanwhile if I am not interested I can always ignore it.........

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Originally Posted by ddixie884

I for one am always glad to see chrony readings and pressure values on handgun loads. Things change over time and no data is wasted. Meanwhile if I am not interested I can always ignore it.........

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Well said, I second your informed response.

I recognize that a few may not give a hoot about the data but I’ll continue to share my results with the great folks on this site.

In my hands, and for the majority of serious handloaders, a chronograph is a very beneficial and indispensable tool.

Well, I thank you for going through the trouble of sharing your results and I liked reading them. And I want to encourage you to keep doing what it is you like to do, without somebody jumping all over the thread. Can we just be civil. Like the old adage, "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hi-Speed

Well said, I second your informed response.

I recognize that a few may not give a hoot about the data but I’ll continue to share my results with the great folks on this site.

In my hands, and for the majority of serious handloaders, a chronograph is a very beneficial and indispensable tool.

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THANKS FOR SHARING!

I am sure you enjoyed getting out to go shooting and recording the results, without the chronograph data you would really have no idea what you had for certain.

I tested the same Power Pistol Load in my 1-7/8" J-Frames just to see how it compared to my 8-3/8" M14. I know how to interpolate but still use a chronograph with handguns.

I too enjoyed the post and the load data. I've got a Chronograph and like seeing what my loads are shooting at. It's my time and money invested and it makes me happy. If I'm not getting the velocity I want, I try a different load. powder, bullet etc. Thanks for the writeup.