CVA Optima V2 pistol and Lee R.E.A.L. bullets- sizing needed?

Hello, all-

I’m a n00b here, so please be patient with my dumb questions… :-P

Just bought a CVA Optima V2 pistol. Inline, 209 ignition, .50 cal., 1:28 twist.

Have been reading lots of threads here… great resource!

Plan to use Lee R.E.A.L. bullets over a felt wad. This will save $$$ on sabots, and help keep the litter down, at the range.

Have access to both 250 and 320 grain molds, and plan to try both, eventually.

Plan to pour (more or less) pure lead, unless I need a little tin to help fill out the mold.

Plan to use it as a range toy ONLY, so power isn’t particularly important- just want to ring the gongs!

NOW, TO THE POINT- are folks running these bullets through a sizer, or just loading them “as-cast?”
(I have not even slugged the bore yet, so I’m maybe getting ahead of myself.)

I understand the “Rifling Engraved At Loading” name and concept, but it just seems like stuffing a bullet with a .517 driving band might be a little more than I bargained for. I’ve read posts here where folks said they have to start them with a mallet, but the bullet loads OK after the rifling has engraved the driving bands.

Thanks for any experience you can share.

I know the best thing is to just get ahold of the molds and start casting/shooting, but I’m doing one thing at a time, here.

I’m also in MN, and “The Big Chill” is upon us. (Might be spring before I put it all together!) :(

No sizing needed. You will be blown away how easy they load. I think it is the main reason they don't shoot that great. You start them with your thumb, and the weight of your ramrod is just about enough to send them down. Only the top band is .517", and even then, they are better described as knife edges, than bands.

If all you are doing is hitting a gong, don't waste your money. Buy a .490" ball mold, a yard of pillow ticking, and have at it. They are more accurate than REAL molds, use nearly half the lead, and can shoot good with light loads.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by megasupermagnum

No sizing needed. You will be blown away how easy they load. I think it is the main reason they don't shoot that great. You start them with your thumb, and the weight of your ramrod is just about enough to send them down. Only the top band is .517", and even then, they are better described as knife edges, than bands.

If all you are doing is hitting a gong, don't waste your money. Buy a .490" ball mold, a yard of pillow ticking, and have at it. They are more accurate than REAL molds, use nearly half the lead, and can shoot good with light loads.

---

Thanks, megasupermagnum!

It just so happens that I have some .490 round balls, and pillow ticking in a couple of thicknesses. :Fire:

Sometimes I get to daydreaming, and go right past the obvious. Obviously I spend more time ruminating, than shooting! :mrgreen:

REALs are truly a love/hate relationship here in th cast muzzleloader community. Some people have great experience with them and others don't at all.

I have had great success with them over moderate charges in a 1:28 over felt wad. The felt wad was the key ingredient for me...changed it from "meh, it's ok" to "oh yeah, that's the ticket"

Use as soft of lead as you can ...be picky which ones you choose to keep (only keep the ones that are perfect with very sharp well filled out ribs)...weigh them and keep only those that are perfect and within a grain in weight. It's alot of work to out together a hundred this way but it's worth it.

I love em. They work very well for me. But ymmv. Again....yes on the felt wad. Would highly recommend as a starting place to hrt good accuracy

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

I just tested .490 round ball, Lee REALs, Power Belts and Minie's through my V2.

The big 320 REALs shot best for me. Three holes touching at 50 yards. The 250's I couldn't do much with them.

Patch and ball seems good for the pistol, which I also have, because of the lighter boolit you can get killing speeds without all the recoil.

https://youtu.be/HATl9h9nakM

I have used the lee 50 320 grnAttachment 293872 real bullet to take a few Blacktail bucks and a cow elk. I used a traditions evolution rifle. no wad, bullet over 110 grns of shockeys gold powder/ or muzzle black powder with rws musket caps. In oregon we have to use loose powder, no 209 primers and open sights.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Super Sneaky Steve

I just tested .490 round ball, Lee REALs, Power Belts and Minie's through my V2.

The big 320 REALs shot best for me. Three holes touching at 50 yards. The 250's I couldn't do much with them.

Patch and ball seems good for the pistol, which I also have, because of the lighter boolit you can get killing speeds without all the recoil.

https://youtu.be/HATl9h9nakM

---

One important aspect that stuck out to me is that you say you use a short starter with the REAL. To me that indicates they are a much tighter fit for you. Either they cast bigger than most, or your bore is tighter. I'm not saying that is for sure the reason, but mine start with thumb pressure. The bottom 3 bands are nothing, and the top band is super easy to engrave. It's not at all like a Maxiball, which I could start with my thumb, but is usually worth using a short starter.

Key is felt wad to protect base and pure lead ,nothing else . Want sharp edges just run the pot/mold hot ,yup there's better molds (Lyman Great Plains) for one and accurate molds sells some great ones ! But Lee is a great inexpensive mold to start with and with literally dozens of Lees along with way too many expensive custom molds I still make/shoot Lee's round balls cause they work ./Ed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by megasupermagnum

One important aspect that stuck out to me is that you say you use a short starter with the REAL. To me that indicates they are a much tighter fit for you. Either they cast bigger than most, or your bore is tighter. I'm not saying that is for sure the reason, but mine start with thumb pressure. The bottom 3 bands are nothing, and the top band is super easy to engrave. It's not at all like a Maxiball, which I could start with my thumb, but is usually worth using a short starter.

---

It's more like you have a bigger bore than anyone or you are not getting good fill out on the mould. The top band should be .017 larger (.517) than a .500 bore. You are the only one I have heard of being able to start a REAL with thumb pressure alone. Most have to give a good sharp rap of the short starter and then after that, it goes down easy. It's no wonder you are getting such bad results from the REAL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mooman76

It's more like you have a bigger bore than anyone or you are not getting good fill out on the mould. The top band should be .017 larger (.517) than a .500 bore. You are the only one I have heard of being able to start a REAL with thumb pressure alone. Most have to give a good sharp rap of the short starter and then after that, it goes down easy. It's no wonder you are getting such bad results from the REAL.

---

I know the search function is not good on this site, but if you look you might be able to find all the testing I did with REAL's in the past. At one point I dedicated a whole month to making them work, and I did get them to a usable level. I can't recall everything I did, but for sure I tried both the 320 gr 50 cal in a TC Impact, and a 380 gr 54 cal in a TC Renegade, New Englander, and Scout pistol. I absolutely got good fill out. I made absolutely sure I got .517" on the front band (I forget what the 54 caliber was, possibly .554"?) . I sorted every single bullet with a calipers, and I weight sorted. I even went so far as to beagle the mold. I tried pure lead mostly, but even tried 20-1 alloy. I tried all kinds of wads, mostly felt. I tried all kinds of lube, but mostly TC bore butter, and Crisco. I exhausted every possible idea I could come up with.

Since we are talking 50 caliber here, for sure my TC Impact has a bore of .500". I measured it when I crowned it (pilot tool) trying to get REAL's to shoot. I'm glad I did, as it made the TC Maxiball WAY better. Best thing I ever did to that rifle was cut off the QLA muzzle. Unfortunately it did not help the REAL's at all. I can take a pure lead Lee REAL, measured top band .517", lubed with Crisco, and they start with a thumb easy. After that the weight of a ramrod just about gets them down, until the bore is dirty. I eventually found that by beagling the mold, using a felt wad under the bullet, and using a somewhat lighter 70 gr load that they would shoot around 3" at 50 yards from this scoped rifle. That's the best I ever saw these shoot. The same rifle with a TC Maxiball will shoot 1 1/2" 5-shot groups at 100 yards.

The majority of my time in 54 caliber was with my TC Renegade. I don't recall the exact bore of that when I slugged it, but it's pretty close to .540". This one is open sights, but I still got it to shoot a TC Maxiball about 3 1/2" 5-shot at 100 yards. It does the same with a .520" round ball and canvas patch. I don't think I ever shot REAL's at 100 yards with it. I don't think I ever found a load I'd shoot past 50 yards on a deer, and even there it was iffy. Again I can take a REAL that I sorted with a calipers, lubed, and start it into the bore with my thumb. Not hard even, a child could probably do it. My stainless steel range rod is heavy enough it will seat a REAL down a clean bore on that rifle.

I already know why they don't shoot for me. They don't fit. Their "driving bands" are knife edges. The bottom band is a rattle fit, the next two don't do anything, and the top is so insignificant it will never hold. I'm glad to hear some people have success, but I'm not one, and I can not comprehend how people do it. Flat out, I think the REAL is a dud, dead-end design. I don't think knife edges can ever consistently support the bullet when it expands during firing. I doubt they start in the bore straight either. If I were to make the REAL work in my 50 caliber, I'd need the bottom two bands .502", third slightly bigger, maybe .510", and the top and way bigger. At the very least I'd make the top band way wider, like a Maxiball. So that's a rundown on my experience with them. I've posted far more details in the past, I'd guess mainly 2017-2018. I hope that helps somebody. If you already have the mold, great. If not, just buy a Maxiball mold. Multiple makers still make a 50 caliber, and the 54's aren't hard to find. Nobody will ever say a REAL shoots better than a Maxiball, so just save yourself the headache.

well, MSM also has MegaSuperMagnum Thumb pressure also!!!! I have to use a ball starter in mine as well, starter in my Optima V2 pistol cuz I only have normal thumb pressure.. but, like MSM, i barely got decent so so accuracy in the pistol with them... but in my 50 cal inline rifles, they shoot fine. i just figured it was the personality of my V2...

Mega sold me his 320 grain REAL mold for my 50 cal. Best accuracy came from “tumble” powder coating “really thick”. I used zero lube and a TC 54 cal wad over the powder. I stacked 4 shots on top of each other at 50 yards with 60 grains of Pyrodex. I tried non PC with my home made lube and groups opened up. I believe the thick coating of PC helped with accuracy as it felt like I had some resistance all the way down the barrel when seating my boolit. Non PC boolits with lube slid right down almost like they “fell” to the powder charge. I also had zero leading with the PC only boolits. I also tried the PC and lubed boolits without a wad and both groups opened up. I also seat with thumb pressure till my boolit is flush with the bore like Marco. When I seated with a ball starter my groups also opened up.

It could very well be that my rifles did not care for them too. I tried them in multiple rifles, but really only gave it a good effort in two of them. Actually I think the scout pistol shot them better than either rifle, although it still shot a .530" ball better. The REAL's are definitely not a design that works in everything, they are not forgiving in that regard. I do have very strong hands, but I'm pretty sure anyone could have started those. When I say I used pure lead, I mean stick on wheel weights, which are about as pure as it gets. I could not thumb start the 20-1 alloy bullets.

You guys do bring up a good point on seating pressure. One thing I started doing that I sometimes forget to mention is that I ram my felt wads down first, and give a good "oof" on the powder. I then follow with a ball or bullet, and seat just until it touches that felt wad. Ram the powder, not the lead. I don't do this when shooting for fun, but I do this when I load for hunting.

I used pure lead flooring for mine. I also stacked farm and AG tires for the last 20 years on and off. Must have given me some strong thumbs.lol…To be honest they were pretty easy to start with my thumbs. I’m sure anyone could have loaded mine the way i did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tripplebeards

Mega sold me his 320 grain REAL mold for my 50 cal. Best accuracy came from “tumble” powder coating “really thick”. I used zero lube and a TC 54 cal wad over the powder. I stacked 4 shots on top of each other at 50 yards with 60 grains of Pyrodex. I tried non PC with my home made lube and groups opened up. I believe the thick coating of PC helped with accuracy as it felt like I had some resistance all the way down the barrel when seating my boolit. Non PC boolits with lube slid right down almost like they “fell” to the powder charge. I also had zero leading with the PC only boolits. I also tried the PC and lubed boolits without a wad and both groups opened up. I also seat with thumb pressure till my boolit is flush with the bore like Marco. When I seated with a ball starter my groups also opened up.

---

I was told PC and black powder was a bad mix. Maybe pyrodex is different enough?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Super Sneaky Steve

I was told PC and black powder was a bad mix. Maybe pyrodex is different enough?

---

BULL rap works just fine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/Ed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Super Sneaky Steve

I was told PC and black powder was a bad mix. Maybe pyrodex is different enough?

---

Shouldn't hurt anything at all. As a general rule, those who issue the "no plastic with blackpowder" warnings are those who have little or no experience with it. About the only bad thing about PC only would be that with no lube, your fouling will be hard and dry. It should be ok at the range or hunting if you swab every shot, but you wouldn't be able to get more than a couple shots off before the powder fouling would be pretty bad. If you added lube to the felt wad underneath, you would probably be much better off.

I cant see any reason you couldnt use a PC bullet & Lube them. make cleanup a lot easier with most standard BP lube recipe's applied..

Thats what I do( lube) I do pc for the purpose of adding diameter to a conical that is to small for the bore it's going in . Works great and also allows for soft lead to go faster! What's not to like?/Ed

The TC felt wads (TC bore buttons) I used were pre lubed type. I shot a good 125 plus at the range the day I tested them out. Had a lot of fowling issues. But I was seeing how far I could get away with before cleaning. Seemed like every time I cleaned I pushed fowling down plugging my nipple. Did a thread on it. The nipple was pretty worn before I started my session as well. Haven’t shot the gun since. All I can tell you is I had no leading and the best groups came from no lube on a PC REAL boolit with a pre lubed TC bore button.


Hers my 4 shot group in the center at 50 yards using open sights. The other smaller holes on the target are from other guns.


https://i.imgur.com/osOFD6P.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/RwoDnzK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Gvl3i0N.jpg

I still have to work on finding good cleaning techniques. I found after I cleaned initially and started shooting…and not cleaning between shots it stacked my boolits together. After shooting non stop it just finally will get so dirty to the point I would have misfires. Didn’t do a count but probably a good 25 plus shots (might have been twice that count, don’t remember) and it would start to pop my #11 cap and not fire till I cleaned it. I didn’t have any pipe cleaners with me and should have been cleaning the nipple along with the dozen caps stuck under it.lol I remember there was part of a cap inside my nipple as well. So the rifle (and myself) had many excuses not to fire. Still learning with percussion guns needless to say. I can tell you with 60 grains of Pyrodex my 50 yard dead on hold was already dropping 4” at 75 yards.