Facts needed on loading a round ball in a rifled gun.

I have a .45cal Hawken that I want to start shooting. I have experience with .69 cal round balls in a smooth bore, but none with a rifled bore. I bought a .445 mould and and cast some balls using range scrap I use fore my .69 cal round balls. The range scrap I recover as a fair amount of hard lead in it from handgun shooters shooting unjacketed Boolits that tend to use hard lead.

Anyway it has worked fine for smooth bore, but I am starting to wonder if I need pure lead for rifled barrels. I was under the impression that pure lead was only important for mini balls and the wad would take up the space in the rifling otherwise.

Does the lead of the ball have to deform to the rifling even when using a patch?

I see lots of videos of people hammering in patched balls. Is that what you really need to do? I’m not crazy about doing it, because I shoot a lot of antique guns don’t like the idea of beating on them.

I have a .445 cal mold and am prepared to buy a .440 if needed.

All advice appreciated on where to go from here.

Thanks

I usually utilize a .440 in my .45 cal muzzleloaders, pure lead and a .015 patch with 50/50 beeswax/unsalted lard for a patch lube. Balls do not deform to engage the rifling, however there are a few exceptions to this rule. The ball never touches the rifling, spin is imparted by the patch engaging the rifling. A proper fitting patch will exhibit a cross scorched on it after firing, any holes or other damage other than the cross mark will indicate that the ball/patch combination in not correct. You can adjust your ball patch combination so you don't even need a ball starter for the first couple shots, the loading should be a smooth push down to your powder charge. If you have to hammer a ball down the barrel, your not doing something right. As to propellant, I use FFG blackpowder in all my sidelocks, Pyrodex is harder to ignite reliably. Dangerous path your starting down, very addicting. :grin:

Pure lead is best for a patched round ball or a Minie' ball!

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Originally Posted by Jeff Michel

I usually utilize a .440 in my .45 cal muzzleloaders, pure lead and a .015 patch with 50/50 beeswax/unsalted lard for a patch lube. Balls do not deform to engage the rifling, however there are a few exceptions to this rule. The ball never touches the rifling, spin is imparted by the patch engaging the rifling. A proper fitting patch will exhibit a cross scorched on it after firing, any holes or other damage other than the cross mark will indicate that the ball/patch combination in not correct. You can adjust your ball patch combination so you don't even need a ball starter for the first couple shots, the loading should be a smooth push down to your powder charge. If you have to hammer a ball down the barrel, your not doing something right. As to propellant, I use FFG blackpowder in all my sidelocks, Pyrodex is harder to ignite reliably. Dangerous path your starting down, very addicting. :grin:

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Pure lead does upon ignition of powder charge does engage rifling in a round ball or minni type projectile ! the patched ball shows engraving because the patch has to go somewhere forced by rifling and the minni gets its based deformed/Flared to engage the rifling (again being deformed) .To fast a speed and it might strip leading to poor accuracy in the minni or blown patch in the round ball . As far as tight loading woods walks hunting are one thing as for target tight loading wins every time its tried with heavier patch /ball combos requiring some competitors to use not only short starters but (even mallets ) to get the ball rollin/Ed

Even with pure dead soft lead most will use a ball starter to get it in the barrel , once in the barrel both in my experience load the same with your loading rod the rest of the way . I've never had to beat on the rod once it's started using WW alloy a good smack with the palm of the hand on the starter is usually enough unless its a very tight combo . Imo use a 10 thou patch with the .445 and 15-18 thou with a.440 ball

I have a .445 cal mold and am prepared to buy a .440 if needed.


Greg, A quick & dirty test (with an empty gun!) is to see whether a bare .445" RB will roll all the way down the barrel and out again. If it does, you'll just have to see which patch thickness and powder granulation & charge works best relative to accuracy and ease of starting and ramming home. As for RB's cast of WW's v. Pb, Waksupi has long used the former to good effect. I've tried them as well and saw no difference in offhand 25 yd. rifle shooting, but my smoothbore doesn't especially like them. Btw, I'd do the .445" RB test with a pure Pb ball as WW RB's will cast a tad larger. Hope this helps!

.440 is more common, and I had one that needed a .426. I then called it a .43!

The other problem, is that the balls may come out oversized if cast with your alloy. Mine come out around .003" or so bigger when using COWW vs pure lead. It may not sound like much, but that combined with the hardness, can make them hard to load.

I'm not a competition shooter, but I was able to get the best accuracy from my Thompson Centers with a ball that required a short starter. I never got accuracy by such a loose fit that could start with my thumb. On the other side, some times a load that needed a mallet shot good, but often it tore the patch, and ruined accuracy. Once I got that load, mine shoots exactly the same with both pure lead or COWW alloy. I was impressed with pure lead for hunting, but a hard alloy will allow a small caliber to penetrate more.

Mine also come out .003 larger with alloy. I didn't use to know that because I didn't use to have anything to measure them. I just figured at the time they were .440 or whatever other size I was casting. Even after I did have something to measure with I didn't give it a second though because they loaded and shot good. then I got my 54. That gun was tight and I had a hard time loading so I measured and saw I was coming out larger than the mould said. That's when I started to measure all my RBs and found the alloyed ones all came out .002/3 larger. "

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Originally Posted by megasupermagnum

The other problem, is that the balls may come out oversized if cast with your alloy. Mine come out around .003" or so bigger when using COWW vs pure lead. It may not sound like much, but that combined with the hardness, can make them hard to load.

I'm not a competition shooter, but I was able to get the best accuracy from my Thompson Centers with a ball that required a short starter. I never got accuracy by such a loose fit that could start with my thumb. On the other side, some times a load that needed a mallet shot good, but often it tore the patch, and ruined accuracy. Once I got that load, mine shoots exactly the same with both pure lead or COWW alloy. I was impressed with pure lead for hunting, but a hard alloy will allow a small caliber to penetrate more.

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I haven't heard from Dutch in a while....not sure if he is around anymore or not but he expressly indicated that a tight fit with moose milk was a key component. He has a whole 'system' for drilling accuracy from patched roundballs. Dead soft lead....prewashed and dried patches...hand cast and culled balls (keeping tight tight tolerance for weight and size)...moose milk or something like it pre soaked in the patch material (it's not as slippery as other lubes which his reasoning claims helps increase'dwell' time and allowing full complete and consistent burn of the powder) largest ball you can possibly work with and tons of experimentation with patch material, size of ball, lube and charge combo. Swab between each shot to give the best possible consistency in bore condition from shot to shot.

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John, Dutch is alive and well and often writes as Dr5x on the ML Forum.

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Originally Posted by Maven

John, Dutch is alive and well and often writes as Dr5x on the ML Forum.

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Awesome! He is an absolute treasures trove ...and more personality than any one of us can handle alone!

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Thanks for all the advise. I’ll be keeping it in mind while I’m trying out different combinations.