cast lead at high velocities. is it worth it?

so i was looking around at some factory ammo made by buffalo bore, specifically their 357 magnum line and i saw that they had a 158 grain jhp listed at going 1475 from a revolver and 2153 fps from an 18" marlin. now thats obviously a MAX load but they also have a 180 grain jhp advertised at going 1500 fps from a 6" revolver and 1840 fps from and 18" marlin. now for the rifles thats 1628 ft lbs for the 158 grain and 1354 ft lbs from the 180.
so heres my question, can you and/or would you push a cast lead bullet/boolit to that level of power and how would you do it?

This is one of the most hotly debated subjects in recent history on the site. Rather than attempt to weigh in myself, I think I'll remain mum on the subject and suggest you search the past history of high velocity cast.

There's plenty of information on the subject to wade through.

I too am far from an expert so I can only share m experiences. Way befor I had a chrony, I loaded 240 gr LSWC for my 7 1/8" Ruger SBH. I was using wheel weight alloy using a good lube (NRA lube?). I sized the bullets to the same diameter as the cylinder throats and loaded them over some near max loads of 2400 and WC820. I experienced minimal, if any leading. I loaded/shot some 55 gr LRNFP bullets (Beartooth Bullets) in my .223 single shot, using mid loads of 3031 with no appreciable leading. I fired some 165 gr. cast RN bullets (commercial cast) in my 7.62x54r Mosin, and got medium to heavy leading, but it had a dark bore and the bullets may have been slightly undersize. Again, this was before I as able to measure velocities...

One hot problem is what is percieved as high velocity. Those velocities have their purpuse and place same for bullet weight. Second is what happens to a cast bullet on impact at certain velocities and will it suite your intended purpose.

So yes, strive for it if it suites your purpose. Have an open mind to adjust other factors to achieve your end goal.

Me, when I develope a load its is very purpose and goal oriented. I may try for 2100 fps in one gun because there specifical reason why, but another gun is specifically maxed out at 1600 or 1200.

Velocity is never an concern for me unless i need a specific recoil, foot lbs of energy at target distance or i want certain bullet drop.

If i need to drop a deer a deer at 150+ or if i need to maximize bullet drop out to 150 ish yards theb yes i would. Recoil with the 180g will hurt st 1800 fps (i know that from experience) so i would crunch numbers to see what i really need. I am just speeking hypothetically at the moment and from the hip.

I would acheive that with half range scrap, half ww alloy + 2% pewter. I normally air cool but I might just water quench for this first experiment then compare quenched groups to air cooled. Then i would gas check and Lube with SL-68B. I would use 2400 or H110 or Lil Gun. I would do a large latter test from the min to max velocites at .5g increments. Then i would shoot for groups. If i leaded then gun or velocity blows the groups before my objective is met then I would rethink the purpose behind the gun and load. Not all tools can handle the job.

After the .5 test i would find the most accurate load then do a fine tune across 1g at .2g increments with the most accurate .5g group in the middle. Yes it burns a lot of components. But often i find a couple accuracy nodes.

I load my Rossi 357s pretty warm with Lil' Gun. The Lee 158-RF are over 2000 fps in the 16". They are plain base, powder coated and shoot 3-4 moa 10 shot groups at 100 yards.

I bought a NOE 154-WFN gas check mold about 6 months ago. This mold has a long nose, long OAL and a whole bunch more Lil' Gun fits behind it compared to any other 158. I might be able to get 2200 fps if i wanted it in the 20" due to the case capacity increase. The gas check bullet hasn't shot too much better for me than the plain base, but I have only shot one load, one size and one alloy so far with the new bullet.

The Lee 158 SWC gas check bullet shot more like 4" @ 50 yards with two different alloys, two sizes, pc and alox. It shot paper plate sized groups at 100.

The Ranch Dog 135-RF is my most accurate full power load to date at roughly 2100 fps and 2.5 MOA with 2400. This bullet weighs about 140 grains but seats more shallow than many 125 gr bullets, including the Lee 125-RF. I used older 125 grain 2400 data and this load is probably around 40k psi vs the Lil' Gun loads being 30-35k psi. I can tell because it is a little harder on the brass than the Lil' Gun but I still get 6-8 reloads out of a case before I toss them. You could get 15-20 reloads with Lil' Gun at 2000 fps with 158s because the pressure is low. There is another 100-200 fps that could be had with the Ranch Dog 135 bullet using a slower powder like H110, 300-MP or maybe even Lil' Gun. 2250-2300 fps should be pretty easy with 22 grains of powder at 35k psi.

Yes it is worth it i have not done much in 38 caliber but am working with it now , I have for years shot straight wheel weight lead 261 grain lubed bullet at 1430 from 8 3/8" model 29 . Some bullet batches would lead most did not it was my fault not keeping a eye on what i put in the pot.
A few years ago I started coating my bullets with paint and baking them and moved to soft alloy (only for use in a case when bullet base is in case neck).
In 30-30 I shoot a 182 grain as cast bullet from a Marlin at 2040 f/s they preform very close to a jacketed bullet .
In 45-70 I have a 354 grain as cast at 2168 It is way more then I need in Michigan but shoots great .
Those high velocities are worth it when needed for some things i still prefer jacketed bullets like the 6 mm Remington . I jusy replaced a Contender barrel that the lug broke on (early barrel with set screw that weakens lug) with a MGM barrel My 10" barrel broke the weakly designed lug no one will fix them now . Recoil is giving my hands trouble so I ordered a 27 inch barrel and a rifle stock the MGM barrel shoots great and adds almost 400 f/s from the book numbers for 10" barrel . I have to cheat on this round and swage the bullet with a half jacket as the rounds .15" neck is to short to seat alloy bullets .

All of my current "magnum" (or 357 Maximum) shooting is with ASBB HF Red PC plain base boolits cast from range pickup lead.

My 10" contender in 357 Max shoots pretty good at 1800 fps with a 160 gr boolit. It also does pretty good with a stout load and 180 gr boolit.

The 180 recoil is just too nasty for me (sore wrist after 10 rounds) and the 160 recoil is at the ragged edge of ok. The 160 shoots good enough such that if not for the recoil, I would use it for IHMSA. However, the 160 would make a great hunting load.

My IHMSA revolver in 357 maximum is heavy enough that recoil is not a problem, but I do not think I have found a load that it likes over 1500 fps.

I have a pretty accurate (under 3 MOA) 180 gr "plinking" load at 1700 fps in my 16" AR-15 rifle in 357AR (rimless 357 Maximum).

Currently my development focus for the AR is a 200 gr boolit. I can push the 200 well over 2000 fps, but was having fliers. I have ironed out some issues (I think) and am not sure where I will end up. I want 2 MOA at 200 yards but would probably settle for 2.5 MOA. If I can get this in the 2100 - 2200 fps range, it will be worth the effort.

I think the question is better stated as: "Is it worth it to YOU"?

I shoot magnum rounds and standard pressure rounds but I shoot FAR fewer magnum rounds than standard pressure rounds. It's not worth it to me to maintain a separate alloy, a separate gas check mold, another lubersizer with another lube, a supply of gas checks and all of the effort to make a few magnum cartridges.
So for me when I need a few hundred magnum cartridges I select jacketed bullets and assemble the needed magnum rounds. Sometimes I just buy factory ammunition to acquire the needed rounds and supplement my supply of casings when those are used.

Now, as others have stated, there's also the issue of: "what do you consider high velocity"? You can push a plain base bullet pretty fast if everything is correct. (fit, alloy, lube, no thread choke, etc.). Again, it comes down to the individual. I hate gas checks for handgun rounds. I will not use them. So if I get into territory where I need a gas check - I just use a jacketed bullet and call it a day.

In the end - the question can only be answered by each individual for that particular individual.

I've pushed the 358156 cast of WQ'd COWW + 2% tin (158 gr) to 1600 - 1800 fps out of 20" 357 carbines (M92s) and maintained good accuracy with maximum loads of 2400 & H110 for a pistol. Out of a 6"revolver they run 1400+ fps. For hunting I prefer to soften them using 16-1 alloy and slowing them down to 1600 fps and slightly HPing them.

With the slower twists of 357 carbines it's a matter of keeping the load within a reasonable pressure and using the right alloy. Best accuracy at any distance pat 50 yards is going to be with a GC bullet regardless of velocity.

As Petrol & Powder said; "Is it worth it to YOU"? ....... That is the real question..........

Don’t own a 357 but am still green to cast boolits. I started casting a year and a half ago. Always thought there was a velocity limit for cast. My first and only test guns to date were a RAR 450 bushmaster and Ruger 77/44. The bushmaster I ran all the way to top 460 S&W loads with no casing pressure signs other than the gun rattled apart. I powder coated and gas checked them. I found the most accurate load averaged a velocity of 2075fps. It shot 1.1” my Ruger 77/44 best loads 1750 FPS. Both shoot sub MOA. So it just depends on what you firearm likes to shoot. I pick the load that shoots the most accurate. I have found at the higher velocities like others my groups were 3/4 MOA in the 450 bushmaster. My 77/44 wasn’t bad I had an alloy I tried with 23.8 grains of W296 along with a 265 grain boolit that shot MOA. I had a stuck casing every 8/10 so that load was abandoned. I later found that my 18 year old powder scale was on the blink. I bought a new one and retested. No stuck casings anymore buy the groups opened to 1.8” at 100 yards. Never chronied the load because the sane alloy shot a .6” group with 21.1 grains of lil gun at 1750 FPS.

What I have learned is softer alloy will compensate for lower velocity when hunting.

No. Go get a bigger rifle or handgun.

I will have to go along with checking past threads only YOU can decide.if its for you. I run very little over 2000 fps but do some with no problems .

I run the 358156 with gc and powder coated at 1260fps using 2400 from a 2” river. I have not cronoed in. Marlin rifle yet but there is no question when it goes off. The alloy is softer than ww but with just a little copper. It is very very accurate combination. Definately worth a try!

Ruger not river

I'm with Larry, Petrol & Powder on this one.

I value accuracy more than velocity.

IF I can fire 50 consecutive rounds with no degradation of grouping, then higher velocity is no detriment, but if accuracy cannot be maintained, all is mental masturbation.

Velocity is cool. I have a 308 rifle that I can shoot JWord bullets out of with less than 1" accuracy at 100 yards. Those bullets are going in the 2500 fps range. I have been able to shoot cast boolits that were gas checked and powder coated at 2500 fps but with about 2" accuracy at 100 yards with the same gun. I haven't had a chance to try some other things to try to tighten up my groups with cast, but so far there is no leading just less accuracy with lead vs Jwords at that velocity. So I believe that you can shoot cast rounds at jacketed velocities but there are other variables. Larry has mentioned RPM being a factor in velocity - might be a good thing to read up on.

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Originally Posted by theangrydangler

so heres my question, can you and/or would you push a cast lead bullet/boolit to that level of power and how would you do it?

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Answer - yes.

I have loaded 125 grain Lee RNFPs over 300MP and shot them from a 24" Rossi '92. The chronograph read over 2100 fps. I powder coated them. Got over 2200 fps with a slightly higher charge (still below max though) but observed serious leading.

That's 1223 ft-lbs. Purt-near your power level. I am hopefully going out soon to see what powder coated 158 grainers can do over a charge of 300MP.

YES, accuracy is a wonderful thing and I enjoy the challenge of shooting cast boolits into bragging size groups. BUT, in the woods that .5" gun unsupported means very little. I load up my 338 Winnie or most centerfire rifles at near J word velocities and 2" at 100yds. is all of the accuracy I need to drop an animal cleanly.

I can't say for sure , I haven't gotten there yet .:kidding:

Beyond .308, I get about 1700 fps with 44 mag in the lever gun - the same load in my Redhawk is about 1450-1500, about 1600 fps in my tokarev cz52 and getting about 1800 fps in 45-70. I also was loading for an FN49 that shoots 8mm Mauser - they went fast but not quite sure where they were going and got a good amount of leading with that misadventure.
These are all pretty high velocity.