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Hi all,
I am thinking about buying a P38 (9mm). I have always wanted one but I really don't know the ins and outs of what to look for. I would like to keep the price below $600.
What should I avoid? What specifically should I be looking for. I know matching serial number would be good but beyond that I will admit to ignorance.
thanks for your thoughts
atr
First, there are Walther P-38's and there are post war Walther P-1's with aluminum frames. Know the difference before you buy.
The pre-war and wartime P-38's are starting to dry up and original, all matching examples are getting rather expensive. Some unscrupulous dealers will pass off post war P-1's as P-38's to unsuspecting and uneducated buyers, so as always Caveat Emptor.
After that, the pistols are fairly straight forward. The locking block, which Beretta later copied, is a good locking system. The slides can crack around the locking block recesses, so examine the pistol carefully.
The aluminum framed P-1 pistol often suffer cracking to the frame near the boss under the locking block. So again, look carefully before buying.
Some examples will have broken firing pins but most of those will have been repaired and the problem was more prevalent in early pre-war models.
Now the good news. If the pistol is all there and in decent condition without cracks - they are solid pistols.
Good Luck, take your time and set your price limit before shopping.
P.S. there are post war P-38's and post war P-1's but with a few exceptions, all post war P-38/P-1 pistols have aluminum frames.
Don't overlook the postwar Walther P5, which was adopted by many German municipal police agencies. Well-designed gun.
The P5 was Walther’s entry into a 1970’s West German police pistol selection process. German state LE agencies were able to pick their own service pistols, but did so from an approved list determined by the federal government. Prior to the Munich olympics terrorist attacks when the Israeli athletes were murdered, German municipal police ops mostly carried blowback-operated 7.65mm or 9x17mm Browning caliber pocket pistols.
The three weapons that made the Federally approved list were the Walther P5, SIG P6 (P225) and H&K P7.
The P5 was derived from the P38, but with significant changes. The basic locking system is the same. The barrel is shortened from 5” to 3.5”, and the slide was no longer open-topped. The P38’s slide-mounted safety/decocker is gone in favor of a frame-mounted combination slide release & decocker, which was required due to the government requirement that the weapon be safe to carry with a loaded chamber, but capable of immediate fire by trigger stroke only, without no manipulation of a manual safety. To make the pistol drop-safe the firing pin is rotated out of alignment with the hammer until you pull the trigger.
The P5 has an alloy frame (like post-war P1s), using an 8-shot single-stack magazine, similar to, but not interchangeable with the P1. The butt-type magazine release carries over from the P38, but was recessed to preclude accidental activation. A later r P5 compact had a Browning button-style magazine release.
Same cautions as to durability of the light alloy frame apply as to the P1, but the German state and municipal agencies didn't fire their guns as much in training and qualification as the Federal agencies did, and most imported P5s I've seen, while showing holsater wear, don't appear to have been shot a great deal.
I owned two of the post war P1s a few years back. They both shot to left enough that the rear sight had to be adjusted all the way right. I swapped a buddy for them and he wanted them back so we swapped back. The empties fly up and slightly left best I recall. I had no complaints really other than the sight problem. Both of the guns were made in the 50s. 53 and 58 I think. Both functioned well for my friend and I. He had them a lot longer than me.
What Bazoo said about shooting to the left is for real. In 1973 or 74, I was on a pistol qualification range with the Bundeswher at Koblenz. The shooter next to me was shooting holes in my target at 10 meters. The Range NCO snatched the pistol from the man and fired 3 shots rapidly making 3 tidy holes in my target. The look on his face was to die for but the non com directed the issue of another pistol.
I would not have a P-1. A couple of P-38s have come my way but gone down the road. If you have to have that kind of pistol, get a Beretta 92. It is the same basic action as the P-38 but long slide, single recoil spring and double stack mag.
They are out there. I just bought a P1 (p38 design with the al alloy frame and hex bolt reinforcement) from an honest and reliable source-- but it has not arrived yet. The one I found is German Army surplus, fully refurbished, New slide and some other parts new as well-- but I won't know for sure how good it is until I get it in my hands. The price was under $600. So, without knowing yet how good it is, you can find them under $600.
About 15 years ago I saw a dealer at the Richmond, Va. gun show with racks of P-38 pistols. They were mostly pre-war and war time P-38's but not collectable candidates. There were a few post war models in the lot. They were still reasonably priced in those days as shooters but by that time even the collectable P-38's were already getting expensive.
For a few years in the early 2000's I would still run across the occasional war time P-38 that had matching serial numbers, a good bore, correct grips, original mags, 95% + finish and was priced under $800. I haven't seen a really good one for less than $900 in about 10 + years.
Now, if you're willing to accept a worn finish, mismatched parts or a beat up but functional P-1 - there are still good shooters out there. Some can be had at a good price. Don't buy one of those as an investment because those are shooters and not collector's guns.
I have a 1980's production Walter P-5 and as Outpost75 stated, it is largely based on the P-1. It is an outstanding pistol.
I've actually shot some P-1 Walther's that were very good pistols but as Dan Cash said, a Beretta 92 is the same locking system with a double stack mag.
If you're looking for the "cool" factor of a P-38 or a post war P-38 or P-1 but don't want to pay the price for a matching serial number, 95% pistol - then seek out the best P-1 you can find for the money and use it as a shooter not a collectable pistol. Just understand what you are buying and don't pay for a war time or pre war P-38 unless that's what you want.
I have two WW II P-38s and one Manurhin-made P-1 post war pistol. The P-1 shoots a little left. I think I could correct it to dead center by drifting the front sight, but have never bothered as it's only off about 6" at 25 yds. Mechanically speaking, I've never had a bit of trouble with any of them, but a friend who owns a P-1 had the firing pin cover, top of the slide just forward of the rear sight fall off, and a couple of small parts it holds in place departed into the ether. This is not a common failure, but happens often enough that it is well known in the P-38 world. The cover is a piece of stamped sheet metal, and is retained by some legs which can be deformed just enough by amateur disassembly to let it fail under recoil. As noted by Hick, extensive use of the P-1 by the German Army and Police resulted in cracked frames, and a hex-shaped reinforcement was added, so it's presence or absence dates a pistol, with the later models possessing the reinforcement being more desirable. I'm just discussing the pistol, as you requested, and not knocking it at all. I like them, and if it was all I had, I'd feel adequately armed. My choice would be a WW II all-steel model.
True, they are becoming harder to find in good condition at a reasonable price. One thing you might keep an eye open for is a Russian capture pistol. They're all steel, since the P-1 didn't come along until after the war. Like all enemy weapons captured by the Soviets, after the war they were disassembled, repaired as needed, very often had the German markings removed, sometimes reblued, and put into storage. Very often, almost the rule rather than the exception, their parts and numbers were mixed up upon reassembly, and sometime new numbers were added with an electric pencil. Viewed from across the room they can appear to be very handsome weapons, but a close up inspection will reveal any or all of the issues of mixed numbers, pitting beneath the bluing, and renumbering. But, they seem to be good shooters, and often can be purchased for less than an unmolested specimen. Just one option worth considering, should you encounter one.
I've had a P-4 since I bought it unissued in box as surplus from West German Police. They apparently wanted Hi-cap after reunification. About 1991-2, I think.
It's a further strengthened variation of the P-1, with the bbl shortened to 4". It does have an alloy frame and I've put about 2500rds through it. Shot straight and true right out of the box. Had it apart at least 10 times all the way down, as far as I can. I heard about P-1 frames/slides cracking, but I can't see any sign on mine. Even with a magnifying glass. All the stories about cracked frames on the P-1's had made me a bit paranoid. But I've never heard a bad thing about the P-4's. My Pistol has shot straight since the first round. No windage problems at all.
Guess I'm luckier then most. And it loves my std 9mm load.
My old Pre-War P-38 has worked well since I got it in the mid-1970's. My DAD worked it over when I first got it, and it's worked perfectly ever since. He may have worked over the sights, I don't remember. But it shoots straight.
I just sold a Walther P38/ original holster & extra mag ( not original) for $750. Gun was in excellent shape. It
was a WW2 bring home and hadn't been shot since it was brought home in 1945. That was second one I had last year. I notice WW2 bring home stuff is starting to trickle out. The GI that brought guns home are getting thin and their grand kids are selling them off.
My WWII era P38 shoots dead on to the sights with the Lee 105 grain SWC , sized .357 , over 4.7 grains of Unique !
A good place for information is www.p38forum.com lots of knowledge collectors over there and they can give you some good advice.
Gary
I got suckered years ago by a gun show dealer who sold me a P-1 as a P-38. [smilie=b:
Had to make a spring for it, nobody had them. Then the extractors started flying off. Bought a complete new slide to fix that. Over the years I have finally gotten it shoot with FMJ handloads a little milder than normal 9mm commercial loads. I say "shoot" advisedly. I got it down to dinner-plate size groups at 25 yards, slow fire from a rest. It is extraordinarily picky about HP ammo. Won't feed Gold Dots worth a hoot. Ditto a Remington bulk HP of which I foolishly bought 1000. (Thankfully my newly acquired Beretta gobbles 'em up.) The ogive of the Hornady Critical Defense bullet is a little sharper; it will feed that. But so far as I know that bullet is not available as a component. So it's barely useful as a bedside defense weapon.
Still looking around for someone I dislike enough to sell it to, but who lives 4 or 5 counties away. Wouldn't take another one as a gift.
[/rant]
Not that it may matter to you, but if you haven't slugged it, you might want to. I bought a NIB P-1, and it slugs at .358", the loosest of any 9mm I ever checked. Even jacketed ammo of typical 9mm bullet diameter shot poorly. .359" cast shoots about 2" at 25 yards however. It MIGHT make you dislike it a little less :)Quote:
Originally Posted by uscra112
I will. I don't consider 9mm a cast bullet cartridge, so I've never slugged it. Will be interesting to find out, in the interest of science. An oversize barrel would certainly account for the poor accuracy. I'll do it today - it's snowing.
Under 6 bills might be a tall order. Yea I saw listings for less, but none you can actually buy. Any actual war time p38 are $1000 and up. I went looking other day when shop near me put a really nice P1 in the case. I did not find any for sale under $600. Any with a decent price were long since sold out.
Finally had a chance to test my P1 today. Shoots very nice. Feeds Remington green and white box 9mm great. I tried some 125 grain flat nose lead also--that was a little quirky-- most times at least one in each magazine load jammed because the nose got hung up on entering the chamber. Very easy to un-jam (just push down slightly on the nose and the cartridge would chamber) but I've got to find something better than the flat nose. I've got some round nose I haven't tried yet-- they'll be next. The only thing I heed to get used to is the top/left ejection. Every now and then the pistol would bounce the brass off my head.
I got to thinking about the P-1 some more, and recalled that I did have one come in that would jam due to the recoil spring guides being made of plastic and having gotten all chewed up. In the original P-38 they were of steel construction, so my first inclination was to cut a pair out on the lathe.
Then I got the idea to make them out of ordinary carpenter nails. First I tried some large finishing nails, cut off to the proper length, and they worked o.k., but the springs would creep up on the tapered head a couple of coils. So the final version was to use regular flat headed nails, and I ground the heads down on my shop grinding wheel to the appropriate size by turning them around and around while in contact with the stone until they would fit in their channels but not enter the springs. It worked really well, and I liked it so much that I made a set for my own P-1.
There have been a large number of refurbished WW2 era guns at the gun shows recently. a lot of them the numbers didn't match, all the stocks were re-finished.
The Enfield I got, the stock wasn't tightened all the way so I'll have to tear the thing all the way down (due to the design so I don't split the stock) to tighten it up
Looking at the front of the P38 he had that day the bottom left of the slide looked as someone had bent it out somehow.
Plastic, you say? Not in the one I have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Gebirgsjager
Matching numbers, bore condition, a field strip to study the condition of the locking block surfaces would be the biggies, and (for TRUE happiness) matching mag and WWII capture documentation. For happiness in all areas, $600 is pretty optimistic these days.
It's a gun that I'd treat as the piece of history it is; I wouldn't run it hot, I wouldn't run it hard, & I'd likely put new springs in it before shooting at all. It's not the strongest design to begin with; it may have been exposed to toasty hot SMG ammo already; it may have been made under press of war - possibly by sabotaging slave laborers; and as one of the earliest DA/SA pistols out there, the concept got a lot of improvement in later designs. REALLY COOL guns to own for the where, when, and what they were, but not necessarily GREAT guns in the fully objective sense. It, and many of the late 30's and after designs were intended to be the cheap, expedient alternative to the old ways of doing things after all.