Printable View
I have roll crimped my 44 mag cast boolits and plan on going out tomorrow and trying them. I tapper crimped my 450 bushmaster and liked how I could mike the crimp for consistency...., .474". I didn't measure my roll crimp but just did it by eye and then of course crimped them all at the same adjustment for consistency. Do any of you mike the roll crimp measurement on 44 mag for consistency and if so what measurement works best?
ROLL crimp for 44 magnum. Can't get the crimp super consistent because you will have slight variations in case length, some will crimp harder than others because of this. It is also not really recommended to trim revolver brass, you can but the gains are minimal for the amount of work involved.
I trim all my brass to the same length after every firing so they are all at the same neck tension I'm just wondering if there is a a certain crimp measurement that works better than others?
Taper crimp the .44 and have been doing so for 20 years or so for a rifle and lead bullets, 300 gr. paper patched and 320 gr nekkid w/ALOX.
YMMV, but I've had success with the approach which was prompted by failures with a roll crimp.
http://i.imgur.com/tT1tiIN.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yo8Zf6g.jpg?1
Dan, what kind of failure did you have with roll crimping? Just curious as I've been reloading for 5, .44 Magnums since 1990 and have only roll crimped...
Dan, I'm loading for the 77/44 and Ruger carbine. What do you measurement do you taper crimp them at? I figure taper crimping has to be more consistent than roll crimping and that's why I would like switch over. I can see it works from your post.
Leading on the paper patch load workup. The bullet used is pure lead. Load I settled on and illustrated in the top photo is 18 grains Li'l Gun with a CCI LRP, and C.O.A.L. at 1.640", W-W brass. The MV hovers in the 1600 fps realm and the package provides consistent 1.25 MOA groups of 5...or a few more. I have not experience any leading, in any circumstance since I began taper crimping lead. Were I using jacketed bullets I would roll crimp.Quote:
Originally Posted by mdi
The Brooks bullet referenced in the lower photo is cast at 30:1.
I do not measure the crimp but suggest that it is somewhat visible if you gaze at it for a moment. If I run my finger over the bullet onto the brass there remains a bit of a ridge where the brass protrudes, but it is faint. Hope that helps. I use a Redding taper crimp die.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripplebeards
A comment offered to anyone interested, crimping serves but one purpose, that being to preclude bullet movement in a round when exposed to recoil from a preceding round. It does not have particular benefit insofar as neck tension is concerned. Neck tension is largely provided by the difference between bullet O.D. and case neck I.D. In my opinion it is variations of neck tension which contributes to loss of accuracy. Annealing case necks is a useful endeavor, and so is proper dimensional interface between the chamber, bullet and brass.
OK: you can Taper Crimp .44's just fine. If you are using a boolit like a 429421 with a tapered crimp groove the Taper Crimp conforms to the crimp groove just like a Roll Crimp would, except it has a sharp bend or fold instead of a curved roll. The mouth of the case is inside the step of the crimp groove preventing the boolit from being shoved back into the case.
This is not the same as a Taper Crimp on a .45 ACP case that only pushes into the bullet .002-.004 on a side. There is no crimp groove on that type of bullet,the Taper Crimp forms one during crimping.
Dave at C&H put me onto this a few years ago and he is an avid .44 shooter who has taken lots of African Game using a .44 Magnum Revolver with very heavy loads.
The biggest concern with High Power loads in a Revolver is having the boolit jump crimp and move forward enough under recoil to tie up the cylinder.
A heavy roll crimp does control this better than a Taper Crimp would,,, BUT,,, we are talking Butt Kicker Loads that most people couldn't shoot well if their lives depended on it. For anything in the realm of "Normal .44 Magnum Loads" a Taper Crimp will work just fine.
You must keep in mind that this type of Taper Crimp is all the way into the crimp groove just like a Roll Crimp, and it is essentially just a slightly differently formed Roll Crimp.
Randy
I guess I have a different definition of taper crimp. When thinking of taper crimp, I think of 9mm. Or simular rounds that headspace on the case mouth. If it's what I think it is, I wouldn't recommend it it a tube magazine. Stick with roll crimp in that case.
These 450 bushmaster loads are not tapper crimped in a the crimp groove and have not shifted all the way up to 40g of of butt kicking H110 tapered at.474" which gave me a thought of tapering the same 44 cal Lee 310's in my 44's. I've shot 1.25" groups with these loads at 35.5g
Attachment 201019Attachment 201020
I have had issues with the Speer .44 plastic shot capsules loaded in 44 special cases backing out do to recoil of the revolver (Vaquero). This is after I have applied a roll crimp on the plastic shot capsules. After having this happen three different times, I have gone back and applied even more roll crimp in effort to keep them in place. Maybe I shouldn't worry about breaking the plastic capsules and just apply a super serious roll crimp on them. These loads are by the book shot loads with the published powder charge. When the capsules back out of the case they tie up the revolver and usually the end plug stays in place and the capsule body separates from the cap causing the shot to lodge in the cap groove such that I have to remove the cyclinder and push the messed up case out and ofcourse the shot goes every where. I got the idea to try a taper crimp to see if that would solve the problem. I just got the taper crimp die and haven't had the chance to try it yet. I have never had the problem with my 38 special shot loads and have shot many of them through the years. I wanted a larger shot payload and that is the reason for going to the 44 special cases
I have never had that happen yet with cast lead boolits that I have made, but I have used a fairly heavy roll crimp ever since I first started loading.Quote:
Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan
I did have a problem once when trying some 180 or 200 grain jacketed bullets, they were only about 1/2 jacket or so, they had a bit of lead above the jacket that was the same size as the jacket, I loaded up 6 of them at the starting load using H110, on the 4th shot I felt something land on the top of my right foot, when I looked down there appeared to be a bullet laying by my foot but it had no jacket on it, I picked it u and it was just the lead from inside the jacket.
I then opened the loading gate and emptied the 4 empty brass and the 2 that were still loaded, well the 2 loaded ones both were missing the inner lead piece and only had the jacket left, I never did find the other lead piece, never have used any more of those yet, I have looked at them a few time and thought about trying them again, but plan on seating them a bit deeper so the crimp goes into the lead some and hope that works.
Michael Grace
A true taper crimp will fail miserably when you get much above 1000fps, too much bullet momentum, especially with 240gr & up. If the case mouth is folding into a crimp groove, that is a form of roll crimp.
That was my point. But no one commented about it. I thought I was missing something. Am I?Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338
My tapper crimp on the 450 is not on the crimp groove just the boolit. It's what is recommended over at 450bushmaster.net and what most of the shooters on that site have been using for years with no issues coming loose. The recommended crimp is at .474" which is a darn good stroke of my rcbs arm to get it to the proper "crunch".
Here was the helpful info I received.
http://450bushmaster.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15297
For loads up to 1,000 fps or so I taper crimp 38/ 357 mag, 44 mag , 45lc/454 casull with cast bullets ! been doing the taper crimping for about 30 years.
You posters made a valid point on if the crimp groove on the bullet lines up with the case mouth the taper will drop into It so I increased my OAL so the taper bends into the bottom groove of my boolit for extra insurance.
The 250g hornady FTX j word dose not have a crimp groove and is the only bullet hornady loads for the 450 bushmaster. It's taper crimped only and loaded to 2200 muzzle velocities.
So how dose Hornady make taper crimps work at high velocities and my boolits didn't shift all the way up to 40g of H110?
I still think the language used is getting mixed up. What you are calling a taper crimp isn't a true taper crimp at all. At least not by my definition... or by reloading manuals definition. I loaded many .223 for service rifle match use. And the Sierra match kings I used didn't have a crimp groove either. Couldn't do a roll crimp (recommended for AR15 use) so I regulated my case neck tension. If you try to crimp a bullet that has no crimping groove.....and this is what I think you all are doing... you will (can) distort the bullet.
Maybe I'm uneducated in the process you are using, but I know of only three ways to seat a bullet. A roll crimp when there is a crimping groove, seating with case neck tension only, and a taper crimp that is used in straight wall cartridges that headspace on the case mouth.... such as the 9mm.
What in the world am I missing on this?
You can definitely use a true taper crimp on a 44 mag. The trick is WHEN to use it. I use it on a 44mag single shot rifle. The load that I am using is definitely "fast and flat", Hornady 265 FTX. With this combination of single shot and taper crimp, there is no need to worry about bullet creep due to recoil. Many deer have fallen to this round, even a few head shots. I would never attempt this load in any rifle (too long to fit in revolver) that has any type of magazine, clip, storage devise, etc. This is a single shot load only.